Aircrew By Proxy

[Blazing_Saddles]

Heard an interesting story the other day. It involves an AEOp and an Airborne Techie on the Gaywacs fleet.

Techie: How do I get to be on SAR helo's?

AEOp: Go to the careers office and apply to become NCA!!

Why is it both AT's and FC's truely believe themselves to be aircrew??? Poor, disillutioned soles!!

 

[Oh sir]

Do you mean disillusioned souls?

 

[vim_fuego]

I'm about to enter into this world and I'm trying to get there without adopting the apparently 'issue' attitude that all Aeops must have about/against FC's and the like...There's been a discussion on pprune about an Air Traffic bod who's been selected for the SO seat this spring and during this 'discussion' a lot of the old wounds were exposed and widened via comments from both parties...

My attitude is if you've been selected then you should be capable...otherwise why have the selection? The AWAC's isn't exactly seat of the pants flying from what I've seen and nothing compared to the Nimrod (MR) i.e. 200', pitch black, getting bumped and banged around for 6 hours etc etc. so I don't think the same qualities apply...There are few who weren't committed to flying who would volunteer for a maritime tour.

 

[Stingray]

I'm about to enter into this world and I'm trying to get there without adopting the apparently 'issue' attitude that all Aeops must have about/against FC's and the like...There's been a discussion on pprune about an Air Traffic bod who's been selected for the SO seat this spring and during this 'discussion' a lot of the old wounds were exposed and widened via comments from both parties...

My attitude is if you've been selected then you should be capable...otherwise why have the selection? The AWAC's isn't exactly seat of the pants flying from what I've seen and nothing compared to the Nimrod (MR) i.e. 200', pitch black, getting bumped and banged around for 6 hours etc etc. so I don't think the same qualities apply...There are few who weren't committed to flying who would volunteer for a maritime tour.

Once again I am following you up ther rear Vim. ::
The old addage of professional aircrew vs part time TG12/FC bunker dweller types rears its ugly head again. As I have explained to you, there are some top notch TG12 and FC's that I have had the pleasure to work with in my previous life currently on board E-3's. Indeed during Telic Pt 1 I met a good number of guys who quite literally worked their lil asses of and hats off to them for a job well done!!!
However. Fundementally these guys are not aircrew. Specialists on one a/c type....maybe/possibly but definately not aircrew. They recieve the pay whilst in post and have a nice brevet to wear also, but that goes once they return to a ground tour.
There are a number of WSOp's who escaped from the TG12 branch and have done well, including a SNCO FC who left E-3's to become 'real' aircrew.
I don't think it matters whether the bums on the seats are filled by professional aircrew or not but knowledge spread from those WSOP's must be greater than the TG12/FC 1st tourists on board.
Anyway lets face it CRM is pants compared to MR2. I wish you well Vim and hope that the guys at Waddo welcome you with open arms.........they'd better have big bloody arms mind!!!

DT_Xtremez_34:

 

[Never Alert]

Once again I am following you up ther rear Vim. ::
The old addage of professional aircrew vs part time TG12/FC bunker dweller types rears its ugly head again. As I have explained to you, there are some top notch TG12 and FC's that I have had the pleasure to work with in my previous life currently on board E-3's. Indeed during Telic Pt 1 I met a good number of guys who quite literally worked their lil asses of and hats off to them for a job well done!!!
However. Fundementally these guys are not aircrew. Specialists on one a/c type....maybe/possibly but definately not aircrew. They recieve the pay whilst in post and have a nice brevet to wear also, but that goes once they return to a ground tour.
There are a number of WSOp's who escaped from the TG12 branch and have done well, including a SNCO FC who left E-3's to become 'real' aircrew.
I don't think it matters whether the bums on the seats are filled by professional aircrew or not but knowledge spread from those WSOP's must be greater than the TG12/FC 1st tourists on board.
Anyway lets face it CRM is pants compared to MR2. I wish you well Vim and hope that the guys at Waddo welcome you with open arms.........they'd better have big bloody arms mind!!!

DT_Xtremez_34:

Your post is correct in that FCs are not aircrew on the E3, they are infact Mission Crew.

However, your comment that WSOps hold more knowledge on the aircraft is complete and utter rubbish as I would suggest that a FC knows far, far more about airspace battle management than you do, as his role requires him to specialise in this area.

Your Knowledge on EW & data links will certainly out weigh the FCs knowledge in this area & I'm sure they make no bones about it. You're all specialists in different areas, crammed into an aluminium tube.

The E3 was not brought into service to provide seats for aircrew, it's purpose is airspace 7 battle management & that requires FCs to take the lead on the jet, end of.

NCA does not appeal to me in the slightest as I have no real urge to fly. Similarly, most WCs & FAs on the jet are in it for the job as the E3 offers the best employment for the branch.

Upon leaving the E3, FCs do not lose their brevet as they hold the Qs for coming back onto the jet if required (something that happened during Telic). They do however, lose the mission pay.

 

[The chosen one]

In a phrase - No stick - no vote!

 

[Stingray]

Your post is correct in that FCs are not aircrew on the E3, they are infact Mission Crew.

However, your comment that WSOps hold more knowledge on the aircraft is complete and utter rubbish as I would suggest that a FC knows far, far more about airspace battle management than you do, as his role requires him to specialise in this area.

Your Knowledge on EW & data links will certainly out weigh the FCs knowledge in this area & I'm sure they make no bones about it. You're all specialists in different areas, crammed into an aluminium tube.

The E3 was not brought into service to provide seats for aircrew, it's purpose is airspace 7 battle management & that requires FCs to take the lead on the jet, end of.

NCA does not appeal to me in the slightest as I have no real urge to fly. Similarly, most WCs & FAs on the jet are in it for the job as the E3 offers the best employment for the branch.

Upon leaving the E3, FCs do not lose their brevet as they hold the Qs for coming back onto the jet if required (something that happened during Telic). They do however, lose the mission pay.

ok agree that the E3 is for battle management and that FC's are qualified to do the job. So what about TG12? Why are they on board and not aircrew?

I can't remember the timeframe but Q annotations only last so long.....when the Q's run out is that when the brevet comes off?

 

[Never Alert]

ok agree that the E3 is for battle management and that FC's are qualified to do the job. So what about TG12? Why are they on board and not aircrew?

I can't remember the timeframe but Q annotations only last so long.....when the Q's run out is that when the brevet comes off?

The brevet should come off after the Q dies however they tend to stay firmly stuck to the No2 jumper. That said, I know one Sqn Ldr who has removed his brevet after leaving the jet, fair play to him.

The RAAF is actually planning on giving all of it's FCs a brevet, using the fact that they 'could' be employed on the AWACS as the reason, despite the fact that only a small percentage of them will be trained up on the jet! Now that's got to wind the NCA up!!

I completely agree about the TG12 issue, if they are onboard for Data Links then they should be pushed off and allow WSOps to do their job.

 

[BufferBird]

I completely agree about the TG12 issue, if they are onboard for Data Links then they should be pushed off and allow WSOps to do their job.

As an ASM(rtd)! Could you tell me what a WSOp is please?

 

[vim_fuego]

I am one and I barely understand what it's all about!

It stands for 'Weapons System Operator' basically then you can add a specialisation after it in brackets so Nimrod MR2's would carry Wsop(EW) meaning electronic warfare or in old money a 'dry man' or Wsop(ACO) meaning acoustics or 'wet man'.

On the Nimrod R's they have another type but I'm unsure what comes after Wsop...I think it might be (LM) after Wsop on Hercs/Tri's/10's but I'm not sure...I'm frankly lost outside of maritime I'm afraid!!

 

[BufferBird]

So why should you take the TG12 Datalink Slots if you are not Linkys?::

 

[Stingray]

I am one and I barely understand what it's all about!

It stands for 'Weapons System Operator' basically then you can add a specialisation after it in brackets so Nimrod MR2's would carry Wsop(EW) meaning electronic warfare or in old money a 'dry man' or Wsop(ACO) meaning acoustics or 'wet man'.

On the Nimrod R's they have another type but I'm unsure what comes after Wsop...I think it might be (LM) after Wsop on Hercs/Tri's/10's but I'm not sure...I'm frankly lost outside of maritime I'm afraid!!

Lost outside of maritime? Your lost in it mate!!!!!!! hehehehehehe

Used to be a scopie myself and always aimed to get on E3's until the goalposts changed and because I wasnt in 'mainstream' TG12 duties I couldnt go. That was half the reason I went WSOp or AEOp in old money.
I always thought that TG12 were on E3's mainly as Fc's are on board. However after going aircrew I honestly cannot see the justification of it.
I have said in a previous post that many are doing sterling jobs but why pay to send an individual through aircrew training only for a groundie to fill the post? Doesnt make sense to me!

 

[Stingray]

So why should you take the TG12 Datalink Slots if you are not Linkys?::

Luckily I am a linky, held a training cat at ISK where its normally an O's job.
But, and plz tell me if I am wrong.....to do the link job u first have to go through SO route????????

 

[vim_fuego]

Luckily I am a linky, held a training cat at ISK where its normally an O's job.
But, and plz tell me if I am wrong.....to do the link job u first have to go through SO route????????

That is as I understand it...

 

[Never Alert]

Lost outside of maritime? Your lost in it mate!!!!!!! hehehehehehe

I always thought that TG12 were on E3's mainly as Fc's are on board. However after going aircrew I honestly cannot see the justification of it.
I have said in a previous post that many are doing sterling jobs but why pay to send an individual through aircrew training only for a groundie to fill the post? Doesnt make sense to me!

Are you suggesting that WSOps should be sent to the SFC in order to be trained up as FCs for the duration of their tour on the E3? That would be absurdly expensive and would put an even greater strain on the training system. It would also put the E3 guys in the difficult position of having to accept first tourist controllers onto the Sqns, an idea that has already been tried and unfortunately it failed. FCs need to have a couple years of experience on the ground before standing a chance on the jet due to the limited options available to them and the fact that they often control large COMAO packages.

There is no way that you'll ever get a WSOp to do a 2 year CRC tour before going on the jet.

Like I said earlier, the E3 was not brought into service in order to get you guys in the air, it's in service for air space battle management, an area that the RAF employs FCs for!

Every other E3 user across the world use Fighter Controllers for FC duties on their a/c. It makes no sense to re-role WSOps purely because the Kipper fleet (you guys have my genuine respect and sympathy) is in dissarray and cannot employ you all.

 

[Stingray]

Are you suggesting that WSOps should be sent to the SFC in order to be trained up as FCs for the duration of their tour on the E3? That would be absurdly expensive and would put an even greater strain on the training system. It would also put the E3 guys in the difficult position of having to accept first tourist controllers onto the Sqns, an idea that has already been tried and unfortunately it failed. FCs need to have a couple years of experience on the ground before standing a chance on the jet due to the limited options available to them and the fact that they often control large COMAO packages.

There is no way that you'll ever get a WSOp to do a 2 year CRC tour before going on the jet.

Like I said earlier, the E3 was not brought into service in order to get you guys in the air, it's in service for air space battle management, an area that the RAF employs FCs for!

Every other E3 user across the world use Fighter Controllers for FC duties on their a/c. It makes no sense to re-role WSOps purely because the Kipper fleet (you guys have my genuine respect and sympathy) is in dissarray and cannot employ you all.

In no way am I saying that WSOps get trained as FC's. And nor do i want to start any riots!!!!! Just saying asking a genuine question whether TG12 (not controllers) should be employed on E3's when there are plenty of WSOps to fill the posts.
As I have said previously, at the end of the day etc it matters not as all the guys onboard regardless of rank or role do a splendid job!!

 

[Never Alert]

In no way am I saying that WSOps get trained as FC's. And nor do i want to start any riots!!!!! Just saying asking a genuine question whether TG12 (not controllers) should be employed on E3's when there are plenty of WSOps to fill the posts.
As I have said previously, at the end of the day etc it matters not as all the guys onboard regardless of rank or role do a splendid job!!

I did a TDL course a year or so ago which had 2 WSOps on it. They clearly new more about Data Links than the rest of the room put together & with this in mind, I can see no reason as to why TG12 should be on the jet when there are already qualified growbags who can do the job.

Lot of politics going on I think but ultimately, I suspect that WSOps will gradually take over most seats on the E3 barring the weapons seats.

 

[Stingray]

I did a TDL course a year or so ago which had 2 WSOps on it. They clearly new more about Data Links than the rest of the room put together & with this in mind, I can see no reason as to why TG12 should be on the jet when there are already qualified growbags who can do the job.

Lot of politics going on I think but ultimately, I suspect that WSOps will gradually take over most seats on the E3 barring the weapons seats.

Might have been me on that course!!!!!!! Have done a few at SFC.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

There is a problem at the moment with WSOs carrying out the surveillance task on the E3. Whilst I accept that the training WSOs get at Airmanship is amongst the best in the world, they are not trained Surveillance Operators (in ASACS terms). This increases the workload on the ground component (ie me and my compadres). Identification decisions form a cornerstone for ROE decisions so the training system must be robust and strict. If the E3 passed out an unrecognised air picture for someone else to action then putting WSOs in the seat would not be a problem. However this is not the case so TG12/FC types are the most suitable for the SO role.

Only my opinion mind....

 

[BufferBird]

Might have been me on that course!!!!!!! Have done a few at SFC.

Having completed TDL, L16 etc not only were there Wsops and Codgobs, but Pongos on the courses too. Do you think that, that is a justification for having them on the jet?? I never had a choice about being a linky, I was in the right (or wrong, depending on how you feel!) place at the right time. My Links experience went back 13 years. But I never felt the urge to get a/b, unless it was on jollys. One of the most senior birds on the jet, until she emigrated, started as a linky, Dont think she would agree with no TG12 on the jet!