Harry's Iraq role reviewd

[MAINJAFAD]

Agreed.

HMS Invincible, was crucial in providing air defence and the means of attacking enemy ships and ground positions, while Invincible's helicopters provided constant anti-submarine protection.

Very Off Topic

Hermes did most of the attacking enemy ships and ground positions (firstly with Sea Harriers and then the 1 Sqn boys). Invincible was suppose to have been the group's Anti Air Warfare Control Ship, however Hermes staff had a habit of butting into the role and causing fcuk-ups like the an incident that led to Sheffield being sunk.

There is a conspiracy theory about Invincible, propagated by the Argentineans that two A-4 Skyhawks attacked the ship on the 30 May 1982. Two Argentinean navy Super Étendard, one carrying the last air launched Exocet in the Argentinean locker (the other to provide radar targeting information if the radar on the missile carrier went U/S), attacked a radar contact that was in a position that ground based radar on the Falklands had been picking up Harriers climbing from to high level for there transit to CAP stations around San Carlos. Following the Super Étendards were four Argentinean air force A-4 Skyhawks, which were to follow the missile’s smoke trail, and finish off what ever they found with free fall bombs. The two Argentinean Skyhawk pilots that got back to base, claimed to successfully bombed Invincible, after it had been hit by the Exocet.

What actually happened was this.

What the Étendard fired at was in fact a Type 21 Frigate HMS Avenger, which just happened to be transiting the area at which the Harriers had been climbing up from after doing a low level transit from the carriers to avoid giving their ship’s position away. Avenger picked up the transmissions of both the Étendard’s radar and the Exocet’s tracking radar, fired off a chaff cloud and hid in it. Behind Avenger about 10 miles away was one of the carrier group’s radar picket, the Type 42 Destroyer HMS Exeter. Exeter picked up the Exocet and the Skyhawks and engaged both with Sea Dart SAM’s. Avenger meanwhile tried to engage the Exocet with its 4.5 inch main gun. What is known is the Exocet didn’t hit anything (Avenger claimed to have hit the missile with its gun, Exeter may have got it with Sea Dart or it may have just flown though the chaff cloud and flew into the sea when it ran out of fuel, nobody is sure). Exeter killed one of the Skyhawks with Sea Dart for sure and may have got the second (though Avenger also claimed to have shot down the second Skyhawk with its gun). The two remaining Skyhawks tried to bomb Avenger (which was make smoke like nobody’s business) and missed.

Because Invincible stayed down south to provide air cover until replaced by HMS Illustrious (which was still being built during the war). The Argentineans still believe that the Invincible hid somewhere to repair the damage done by an Exocet strike and bomb damage done by the attack on the 30 May (which nobody of the 1000+ crew on Invincible at the time saw with their own eyes, though the crew on Avenger did note the two Skyhawks trying to bomb them).

Off Topic

 

[Scaley brat]

Hermes did most of the attacking enemy ships and ground positions (firstly with Sea Harriers and then the 1 Sqn boys). Invincible was suppose to have been the group's Anti Air Warfare Control Ship, however Hermes staff had a habit of butting into the role and causing fcuk-ups like the an incident that led to Sheffield being sunk.

There is a conspiracy theory about Invincible, propagated by the Argentineans that two A-4 Skyhawks attacked the ship on the 30 May 1982. Two Argentinean navy Super Étendard, one carrying the last air launched Exocet in the Argentinean locker (the other to provide radar targeting information if the radar on the missile carrier went U/S), attacked a radar contact that was in a position that ground based radar on the Falklands had been picking up Harriers climbing from to high level for there transit to CAP stations around San Carlos. Following the Super Étendards were four Argentinean air force A-4 Skyhawks, which were to follow the missile’s smoke trail, and finish off what ever they found with free fall bombs. The two Argentinean Skyhawk pilots that got back to base, claimed to successfully bombed Invincible, after it had been hit by the Exocet.

What actually happened was this.

What the Étendard fired at was in fact a Type 21 Frigate HMS Avenger, which just happened to be transiting the area at which the Harriers had been climbing up from after doing a low level transit from the carriers to avoid giving their ship’s position away. Avenger picked up the transmissions of both the Étendard’s radar and the Exocet’s tracking radar, fired off a chaff cloud and hid in it. Behind Avenger about 10 miles away was one of the carrier group’s radar picket, the Type 42 Destroyer HMS Exeter. Exeter picked up the Exocet and the Skyhawks and engaged both with Sea Dart SAM’s. Avenger meanwhile tried to engage the Exocet with its 4.5 inch main gun. What is known is the Exocet didn’t hit anything (Avenger claimed to have hit the missile with its gun, Exeter may have got it with Sea Dart or it may have just flown though the chaff cloud and flew into the sea when it ran out of fuel, nobody is sure). Exeter killed one of the Skyhawks with Sea Dart for sure and may have got the second (though Avenger also claimed to have shot down the second Skyhawk with its gun). The two remaining Skyhawks tried to bomb Avenger (which was make smoke like nobody’s business) and missed.

Because Invincible stayed down south to provide air cover until replaced by HMS Illustrious (which was still being built during the war). The Argentineans still believe that the Invincible hid somewhere to repair the damage done by an Exocet strike and bomb damage done by the attack on the 30 May (which nobody of the 1000+ crew on Invincible at the time saw with their own eyes, though the crew on Avenger did note the two Skyhawks trying to bomb them).

You should get a Nerd tag for that dude ! DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[Tashy_Man]

He's third inline you p1ssed up moronic biff.

Effectively 2nd in line but thanks for the complement you to$$er. (RTFP)

Crack on...........DT_Xtremez_09:

Keep it up wgaf you'll soon get that MOD tag

 

[MAINJAFAD]

You should get a Nerd tag for that dude ! DT_Xtremez_42:

Got the bilbe on the Falklands air war that's all, got it to find out about the wrecks I saw on my first tour down there.

 

[wgaf]

Very Off Topic

Hermes did most of the attacking enemy ships and ground positions (firstly with Sea Harriers and then the 1 Sqn boys). Invincible was suppose to have been the group's Anti Air Warfare Control Ship, however Hermes staff had a habit of butting into the role and causing fcuk-ups like the an incident that led to Sheffield being sunk.

There is a conspiracy theory about Invincible, propagated by the Argentineans that two A-4 Skyhawks attacked the ship on the 30 May 1982. Two Argentinean navy Super Étendard, one carrying the last air launched Exocet in the Argentinean locker (the other to provide radar targeting information if the radar on the missile carrier went U/S), attacked a radar contact that was in a position that ground based radar on the Falklands had been picking up Harriers climbing from to high level for there transit to CAP stations around San Carlos. Following the Super Étendards were four Argentinean air force A-4 Skyhawks, which were to follow the missile’s smoke trail, and finish off what ever they found with free fall bombs. The two Argentinean Skyhawk pilots that got back to base, claimed to successfully bombed Invincible, after it had been hit by the Exocet.

What actually happened was this.

What the Étendard fired at was in fact a Type 21 Frigate HMS Avenger, which just happened to be transiting the area at which the Harriers had been climbing up from after doing a low level transit from the carriers to avoid giving their ship’s position away. Avenger picked up the transmissions of both the Étendard’s radar and the Exocet’s tracking radar, fired off a chaff cloud and hid in it. Behind Avenger about 10 miles away was one of the carrier group’s radar picket, the Type 42 Destroyer HMS Exeter. Exeter picked up the Exocet and the Skyhawks and engaged both with Sea Dart SAM’s. Avenger meanwhile tried to engage the Exocet with its 4.5 inch main gun. What is known is the Exocet didn’t hit anything (Avenger claimed to have hit the missile with its gun, Exeter may have got it with Sea Dart or it may have just flown though the chaff cloud and flew into the sea when it ran out of fuel, nobody is sure). Exeter killed one of the Skyhawks with Sea Dart for sure and may have got the second (though Avenger also claimed to have shot down the second Skyhawk with its gun). The two remaining Skyhawks tried to bomb Avenger (which was make smoke like nobody’s business) and missed.

Because Invincible stayed down south to provide air cover until replaced by HMS Illustrious (which was still being built during the war). The Argentineans still believe that the Invincible hid somewhere to repair the damage done by an Exocet strike and bomb damage done by the attack on the 30 May (which nobody of the 1000+ crew on Invincible at the time saw with their own eyes, though the crew on Avenger did note the two Skyhawks trying to bomb them).

Off Topic

On a more serious not, have you ever thought of writing a book.

 

[wgaf]

Effectively 2nd in line but thanks for the complement you to$$er. (RTFP)

Crack on...........DT_Xtremez_09:

Keep it up wgaf you'll soon get that MOD tag

Off Topic And the first thing I'd do is abuse you, biff boy.Off Topic

 

[Tashy_Man]

Off Topic And the first thing I'd do is abuse you, biff boy.Off Topic

OK no probs....it takes a biff to know one...must be a good spotter.....

Crack on...........DT_Xtremez_09:

 

[MAINJAFAD]

On a more serious not, have you ever thought of writing a book.

On this subject, most of what can be written has already been written (However may be worth doing when the classified histroy and records are declassified in 5 years time, as some bits have not yet been covered in detail (theres a good Vulcan story in there I know of for starters).

 

[wgaf]

On this subject, most of what can be written has already been written (However may be worth doing when the classified histroy and records are declassified in 5 years time, as some bits have not yet been covered in detail (theres a good Vulcan story in there I know of for starters).

Aw don't be a f##ker tell us or pm me I actually love this sort of stuff and the books we get are good but not as good as the real thing .

 

[MAINJAFAD]

Aw don't be a f##ker tell us or pm me I actually love this sort of stuff and the books we get are good but not as good as the real thing .

Sharky Ward does mention it in his book Sea Harrier Over the Falklands, however he got most of the details wrong (like the date of the raid for starters).

 

[shoutingwind]

is harrys life worth more than all of the others who are currently serving in sandy places? no absolutley not. Bring on the desert for him then....

what worries me more is the fact he actually WANTS to go, the lad need his head sorting LOL

I say good luck to him, and along with everyone else in theatre i hope he comes home hale and hearty. And maybe a little bit wiser to.

 

[Defender of the universe]

I THINKS HE WANTS TO BE A HERO.

Provided hes in a tank he thinks hes invincible..........Wrong as we all know.

He obviously aint going to get a medal cos Royalty tend to get them anyway. Maybe the guys genuine and wants to fight for queen and country.. Think about it, it is his nan after all that hed be fighting for if this was the case.
Could it be the army mentality that makes him want to go out and fight? or could it just be he wants to go out and blow things up in his nice shiney tank.

Either way whatever happens the guy deserves our best wishes for a safe return home to his family along with all the other troops out basking in the sunshine,lets look at it another way there aint much more in the options of going overseas now to get a nice tan.

 

[vim_fuego]

I don't think the fact that on the basis of 'he's signed on the dotted line' is the arguement here...He did and most if not all of us are in agreement that he must/should serve where ever...

The deciding factor IMHO is if he is to go to a war zone how many other soldiers will die because of his presence? Imagine if you're the wife of private Bloggs who happens to be Harrys tank driver...You know Bloggs is going to a dangerous place where losses are becoming an accepted part of life these days but your hubby is going to be driving the tank of THE most sought after prize in Iraq...ideally the insurgents would like to capture your hubbys boss (and hubby) and parade them on TV until such time the coalition forces pull out or the insurgents begin sharpening their knives...

Until Harry arrived in theatre the insurgents were blowing up various targets all over the region...police stations, markets, warriors, landrovers, school buses and so on...Now Bloggs and his colleagues are potentially driving the most sought after piece of hardware in the country due to who could be in it...A must have for every faction in Iraq.

So I think the arguement/debate should be centred around the feelings of the families who's chances of losing a husband, father, son or daughter may infinately rise due to one person wishing to prove, albeit noble in many eyes, a point...

 

[mad_mo]

Unless Charles abdicates. If he passes the throne, it goes to Andrew and his kids. He has to accept it then abdicate for William to ascend. If I'm wrong Mad Mo will correct me I'm sure ! DT_Xtremez_15:

Im not the resident constitutional expert! DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[Exlineswine]

[QUOTE

So I think the arguement/debate should be centred around the feelings of the families [/QUOTE]

I don't think the feelings of families should feature in any military decision, a military decision is just that, it might be harsh, unfair and painful but then war is harsh, unfair and painful.

If the services have to take into consideration what families think, we will lose.

 

[vim_fuego]

[QUOTE

So I think the arguement/debate should be centred around the feelings of the families

I don't think the feelings of families should feature in any military decision, a military decision is just that, it might be harsh, unfair and painful but then war is harsh, unfair and painful.

If the services have to take into consideration what families think, we will lose.[/QUOTE]


Not what I wanted to get across...taken out of context perhaps...I know the forces should not base their decisions purely on a families feelings but why should a soldiers life be put more at risk (infinately so) because an individual wishes to serve? As a commander in theatre would you gladly sacrifice 'x' amount of men to facilitate his right to serve? And if you can then morally justify it...I thought we'd moved on from the WW1 ethos of you've signed on the dotted line so expect to die...

 

[True Blue Jack]

OK, here's my four penn'orth for what it's worth.

Harry sees himself as just another one-pip wonder in the Household Cav. He wants to go where they go and do what they do because like the whole of his immediate family (and many of us) he has a strong sense of duty. He is no fan of the media and will be silently seething at the speculation going on now. He knows that going to the sandbox under such a spotlight will inevitably raise the stakes for the people around him, but he also knows that not going will see him branded a coward by the same people who are saying he shouldn't go. Talk about a no-win situation.

So, he will go to Iraq and command his Challi, which will look like every other Challi in the region - drawing attention to it with additional protection would be counter-productive. He will either do his tour of duty and come home a hero, or he will be injured/killed and the media will say "I told you so", which will fade over time to hero status.

Off Topic If Charles chooses not to accept the throne, or if he pre-deceases the present monarch, then William will ascend to the throne. Both William and Harry would have to die childless for Andrew and his daughters to move into the big house.

 

[MAINJAFAD]

To be honest, the problem is that bunch of snakes called the media again. As they will tell the world that Harry is out there and they don't give two hoots about the fact that the insurgents will go all out to capture / kill Harry and in the process kill more than just the guys around him.

 

[Exlineswine]

I doubt very much that we have moved (and this admittedly is a qualified 'we' because I've been out 13 years) beyond the you have signed so you will fight scenario unless things within the forces have changed dramatically recently.

Inevitably if one group of people (harry's squad)is going to be more in danger then another group will be in less danger because the insurgents/terrorists are concentrating their efforts upon HRH.

If we bring feelings and concerns for families into the equation, even peripherally, it could negatively affect the clear decision making process necessary for the military to follow.

 

[vim_fuego]

It would be a safer idea for all concerned if he was to fulfill an ops role during his deployment...Then he saves face by going to Iraq doing a worthwhile job whilst his troops are less at risk by travelling in the same vehicle...The press are not going to let go of this story so they could be used to his advantage by promulgating the fact that he's not patrolling...

Exlineswine...it's me that is taking the feelings of families into consideration...We know the upper echelons do very little of this on the whole...just look at quarters/charges/JPA/post injury care etc etc..