Ex Red going down.

[Dan_Brown]

Bit of a tenuous link to the Reds though!

 

[Late & Tired]

Bit of a tenuous link to the Reds though!

"...Sling enough mud, some of it will stick".

 

[Tin basher]

Bit of a tenuous link to the Reds though!

Agreed a tenuous link for most but just simple Journalistic licence for journo's

 

[Tin basher]

Potentially more brown stuff hitting the turning object. Documentary on Sky tonight. Suggesting lack of help for complainants

"One of the RAF's most senior officers ignored a plea to rein in abusive Red Arrows pilots, it has been claimed. Air Vice-Marshal Suraya Marshall allegedly brushed aside an appeal by a woman who had been targeted by Top Guns. The claim is included in a television documentary to be screened tonight. Untouchable: Inside the Red Arrows airs on Sky News at 9pm on Wednesday, 27 December."

RAF officer accused of ignoring plea to rein in Red Arrows pilots

The victim had hoped AVM Marshall would intervene to prevent further mistreatment of females on the world famous squadron. But despite her revelations, no remedial action was taken.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Barch]

Now that it has become public with top brass names are involved I reckon that they will be disbanded citing operational requirements.

Then around 2028 a new unit will be formed under a new name (chosen by Blue Peter viewers) to display from 2030 when the Red Arrows are history.

The RAF has had so much bad publicity in the last few years some drastic actions have to be taken.

 

[4mastacker]

Potentially more brown stuff hitting the turning object. Documentary on Sky tonight. Suggesting lack of help for complainants

"One of the RAF's most senior officers ignored a plea to rein in abusive Red Arrows pilots, it has been claimed. Air Vice-Marshal Suraya Marshall allegedly brushed aside an appeal by a woman who had been targeted by Top Guns. The claim is included in a television documentary to be screened tonight."

RAF officer accused of ignoring plea to rein in Red Arrows pilots

The victim had hoped AVM Marshall would intervene to prevent further mistreatment of females on the world famous squadron. But despite her revelations, no remedial action was taken.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Some years ago, the Australian Army Chief made a video about unacceptable behaviour in the Australian Forces and he made the comment that should anyone become aware of unacceptable behaviour , "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept". If true, it would appear that a RAF senior officer didn't watch that video. None of this "chain of command" excuses!!

 

[dctyke]

When I read the recent history of issues on the reds I cannot help thinking, what the hell was the Sqn WO doing about it? He is the one man who could/should have put a stop to it whether it involved ground or aircrew. I wonder if the reds WO is an ex reds SNCO who is already indoctrinated to what was an ‘in house’ way of life on the squadron?

 

[fourteen2two]

Those Hawks are pretty old maybe time to disband the team. Talk of using 30 odd tranche 1 Typhoons for spares. Why not form another squadron with some of them instead of the Arrows? They are more use..
Disperse the team members among the whole RAF.

 

[Downsizer]

When I read the recent history of issues on the reds I cannot help thinking, what the hell was the Sqn WO doing about it? He is the one man who could/should have put a stop to it whether it involved ground or aircrew. I wonder if the reds WO is an ex reds SNCO who is already indoctrinated to what was an ‘in house’ way of life on the squadron?

I know the WO who took up post in late 2019. he PVR'd over this behavoiur as the Sqn Execs wouldn't back himclamping down on it. It's had a very serious effect on his MH after finding out his dream job was a fvcking hellhole. He wasn't the choice of the SenGo and Wing Commander at interview but was selected by manning from the MoL post interview.

I don't know what followed him but I was told it was the Execs orginal choice.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Potentially more brown stuff hitting the turning object. Documentary on Sky tonight. Suggesting lack of help for complainants

"One of the RAF's most senior officers ignored a plea to rein in abusive Red Arrows pilots, it has been claimed. Air Vice-Marshal Suraya Marshall allegedly brushed aside an appeal by a woman who had been targeted by Top Guns. The claim is included in a television documentary to be screened tonight. Untouchable: Inside the Red Arrows airs on Sky News at 9pm on Wednesday, 27 December."

RAF officer accused of ignoring plea to rein in Red Arrows pilots

The victim had hoped AVM Marshall would intervene to prevent further mistreatment of females on the world famous squadron. But despite her revelations, no remedial action was taken.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Very apt that she is in a documentary called "untouchable". She has been prepared for high command for a very long time.

 

[Downsizer]

I've never met her, but have heard numerous unsavory things about her.

 

[Barch]

Potentially more brown stuff hitting the turning object. Documentary on Sky tonight. Suggesting lack of help for complainants

"One of the RAF's most senior officers ignored a plea to rein in abusive Red Arrows pilots, it has been claimed. Air Vice-Marshal Suraya Marshall allegedly brushed aside an appeal by a woman who had been targeted by Top Guns. The claim is included in a television documentary to be screened tonight. Untouchable: Inside the Red Arrows airs on Sky News at 9pm on Wednesday, 27 December."

RAF officer accused of ignoring plea to rein in Red Arrows pilots

The victim had hoped AVM Marshall would intervene to prevent further mistreatment of females on the world famous squadron. But despite her revelations, no remedial action was taken.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Did anyone watch and if so, what is your opinion?

 

[Quagmire]

I know the WO who took up post in late 2019. he PVR'd over this behavoiur as the Sqn Execs wouldn't back himclamping down on it. It's had a very serious effect on his MH after finding out his dream job was a fvcking hellhole. He wasn't the choice of the SenGo and Wing Commander at interview but was selected by manning from the MoL post interview.

I don't know what followed him but I was told it was the Execs orginal choice.

Is that GS by any chance?

 

[Dan_Brown]

Met roulette! Didn't know about that one, but sounds plausible

Buuuuuuuut, the stuff about the "Commanding Officer having an affair with a junior" - yes, he should have known better, but it takes 2, it was consensual and now she's a victim?

If true, the guy who tried to raise issues and was told it was in his best interests to STFU - wow.

The Reds did/do think they are celebs and i found them very obnoxious and prima donna's, but the Sky show was scathing for them and the RAF, plus Sky had evidence to back up some of their claims.

The Reds were a great ambassador for the UK, but i'd be happy if they were binned them off - get the pilots back into Sqns and the rest back into the proper RAF - we are carrying gaps everywhere. They have had their fame and truly taken advantage of it - pricks.

 

[Talk Wrench]

Met roulette! Didn't know about that one, but sounds plausible

Buuuuuuuut, the stuff about the "Commanding Officer having an affair with a junior" - yes, he should have known better, but it takes 2, it was consensual and now she's a victim?

If true, the guy who tried to raise issues and was told it was in his best interests to STFU - wow.

The Reds did/do think they are celebs and i found them very obnoxious and prima donna's, but the Sky show was scathing for them and the RAF, plus Sky had evidence to back up some of their claims.

The Reds were a great ambassador for the UK, but i'd be happy if they were binned them off - get the pilots back into Sqns and the rest back into the proper RAF - we are carrying gaps everywhere. They have had their fame and truly taken advantage of it - pricks.

Britannia's defence contracts needs the Reds more than the RAF does which means that the RAF will be somewhat bound to keep them for the considerable future.

 

[Tin basher]

Not a good day for the Reds PR machine. Sky alleged many things. Paying mere lip service to the 12 hours bottle to throttle idea, seeing any new posted in female as potential bedpost notch. At least Wiggy had the ladies round his house for a private meeting to hear their concerns and subsequently held an internal inquiry into their claims. Unfortunatley his organised low key RAF investigation, that most people didn't even know was happening, into the RAFAT found that the RAFAT was fine. As one of the ladies said it was simply the RAF marking its own homework. The guy raising, what he thought where, flight safety issues was ignored and told to be quiet. All the people in the program where seemingly viewed as troublemakers, disruptors, and a nuisance. In balance though it was only one side of the Story and the RAF did not put forward a talking head to debate the claims.

Mystic TB has a prediction. The Reds will be “temporarily” suspended but not for any of the reasons put forward in the TV program. The cover story goes something like this.

As always, we strive to provide the best of the best in the displays flown by the world-famous Red Arrows. The venerable BAE Hawks used by the team are approaching 40 years old and it is financially no longer viable to maintain these almost vintage aircraft to the highest standards required by the RAF. A focus group will be scouring the worlds aircraft manufacturers looking into a suitable replacement aircraft for both initial fast jet pilot training and the Red Arrows to use in future years. Once this new platform is in service, we expect the Red Arrows to reform and thrill crowds around the world as they have always done. Blah, Blah

So there you have it Reds suspended for financial and flight safety reasons with no mention of any behind the scenes shenanigans. Off to the pages of history they go. You read it here first

 

[Gilbert]

The Reds do need binning off, this is coming from someone who even worked on them (Be it for a short time).

My first tour was on the Reds as an AMM, back when the RAF did the massive recruitment push for Techies in 08/09. You couldn't apply for it as a posting at first from Cosford, you just initially got sent as there were so many AMMs going through the system and not enough postings/jpans elsewhere. The Reds and BBMF got asked if they wanted AMMs, BBMF said no and the Reds said "Send us 10 as a trial" and I was one of those first 10. After that it became a posting choice and manning saw it as an easy win to send people.

This then caused in the summer of 2011 the Sqn having 20+ AMMs, all on 1 shift and it was chaos. We ended up doubling up on flight servicings and being the Sqns interaction between Eng and Aircrew out on the flightline. Which makes sense when the investigations post the 2 deaths in 2011 where a lot of officers/pilots commented on the 'Very Junior' members of the Eng side of the house.

Post 2011 the Eng numbers skyrocketed, they now have 2 full shifts, a WO Eng, a huge support cell, loads of FTRS and a team of eng civvies. When I was there, there was no WO Eng, no civvies, 1 FTRS, a day shift and then a small team on "Evenings" that just progressed the jet going under Shed Maint.

Pretty certain I know who "James" is and I worked along side him for a short time before I left, not sure if they are still in but a quick Ctrl+K will check that.

The Pilots and Eng relationship was very much Them vs Us, they did try with their 'Engineer of the Day' slide at the start of every Met Brief which had the Sqn Mug Shot of someone and a few lines 'about them' so they could try to get to know you but that was it. Unless you got selected for Circus and then you were mates for a season. (Circus is a whole different story, including people who put tyre shine on the tyres and micromeshed the exhaust dye pipes to make them extra shiny!)

The pilots stayed in different hotels to groundcrew when away for air shows, I could never figure out why and of course they were always nicer/more expensive.

I always felt sorry for the holding officers ("Kevs") which came to the Reds, they would get stuck in the PR office and help out the PR Civvy and RAF HR Clerk posted in there. We had a female "Kev" hold with us for a while whilst I was there, whilst I never saw any funny goings on. After all the news stories, reports and investigations it does make you think what may have happened upstairs.

All the stories you hear about the Reds Techies being gash and taking shortcuts was very much true, things being shortcut or not done that way because it was easier to do it another way. I'm sure it's improved now, but I do look back and think "Holy ****"

After completing my Further Training at Cosford and being posted to my next unit, it was very much an eye opener seeing the "Real RAF" on maintaining aircraft to the correct standard which the RAF does pride itself on.

I've learnt a lot since then, I'm asked if I'd go back and after working a few months at my new unit and seeing the real RAF doing a proper job I said hell no and kept that stance since. Some AMMs did go back after Cosford for a further 5 year tour too, as for the current newbies only Mechs can go as a first tour. AVs and Weapons can't as they can't complete their NVQ there due to not enough work.

But now working at a place which is desperate for extra bods and seeing the crumbling Flying Training programme struggle, the Reds should just get binned and send those experienced Pilots and Techies to do a real job.

 

[Tin basher]

The Reds do need binning off, this is coming from someone who even worked on them (Be it for a short time).... . When I was there, there was no WO Eng, no civvies, a day shift and then a small team on "Evenings" that just progressed the jet going under Shed Maint......... The Pilots and Eng relationship was very much Them vs Us, ......... Unless you got selected for Circus and then you were mates for a season. (Circus is a whole different story, including people who put tyre shine on the tyres and micromeshed the exhaust dye pipes to make them extra shiny!)

All the stories you hear about the Reds Techies being gash and taking shortcuts was very much true, things being shortcut or not done that way because it was easier to do it another way. I'm sure it's improved now, but I do look back and think "Holy ****"

Gilbert we are generations apart and I was on the Reds not in 08/09 but in 88/89. There are uncanny echoes from your time that match mine. A day shift plus a night shift that was really evenings (in the Naafi before closing time) . There was three way split even back then. The massive egos of the aircrew, the prima donna attitude of the circus guys and the unwashed, unwanted and largely ignored bulk of the hardworking Eng Cadre.

The slack eng practice you mention did reach the notice of the outside world. Cosford was tasked with sending a team to evaluate the reds methods and came back somewhat underwhelmed to say the least.

 

[Gilbert]

The slack eng practice you mention did reach the notice of the outside world. Cosford was tasked with sending a team to evaluate the reds methods and came back somewhat underwhelmed to say the least.

I am aware of this, during my time there was quite a serious loose article incident which resulted in restricted flying controls during a training sortie. (Ironically for the Wg Cdr in question above who was a Flt Lt at the time during his first Reds tour)

The whole thing unfurled into a Human Factors incident and instead of blaming the SP for carrying out work that they were not authorised or trained to do. The incident investigation team ended up blaming Cosford for releasing someone from training who would dare carry out said task that they were not authorised nor trained to do.

Whilst carrying out my Further Training at Cosford and covering Human Factors, my instructor gave me the HF case to do a presentation on for the course as I was there at the time.

Fortunately said SP left the RAF a short time later.

 

[4mastacker]

Did anyone watch and if so, what is your opinion?

Watched it.

First off, why did a female VSO (at the time Commandant of the very unit that is meant to teach leadership to officer cadets) allegedly ignore the approach by a very junior female officer seeking to address the problem? "Not in the Chain of Command" is a lamentable excuse and smacks of the "walk-on-by" culture I mentioned in my post above. If true, that VSO should hang her head in shame; did she not think to pick up the phone and tip the nod to P1 "that there may be a disciplinary issue that needs investigating". Somewhat ironic that the head of an establishment that teaches leadership, failed to show any herself.

As for the relationship between the Team leader and a female member of the unit, ISTR many years ago there was a QR which expressly stated that officers must not consort with female other ranks ( I know, times and values change) and Officers'/SNCOs' Confidential Orders used to state something similar. Did he not think of the impact around the Sqn by his behaviour? Perhaps he had been on the Reds for too long and thought it was his personal fiefdom.

It's a long time since my own close encounter (early 80s) with the Reds but there were uncanny similarities between what was being alleged and my own experience - @Tin basher 's "three way split" comment being right on the money.

Mrs 4ma, who was in the WRAFs, said she had never encountered the type of alleged behaviour on a "normal" flying sqn - she was posted to Bucc sqns.

Overall, what the programme alleged was not a good advert for today's RAF and was a slight on all the decent and dedicated people who wear the light blue and crack on with the job in hand.