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Plumber said:
Nice to see you have calmed down a bit!
All this info and more has been pushed out to the wider community, but its not all national issues. Our employers have been very clever about the cuts. There are no major national issues here its all local. Local press in the areas concerned are up for the fight, that's why you are seeing local disputes. the specter of a national dispute is not on the horizon.
What evidence do you need, Pathfinder? BDAG? If you want more we can get more. We are trying to stop cuts that have been happening year on year. Enough is enough.
With regards to the FBU go back and read my previous post and you'll find whats occurring now with them. The vote for the national strike in 03 had a massive turn out (about 90%) and a 9-1 mandate to strike.
CFO's are hoping that fitting of smoke alarms and home risk assessments and community education are going to reduce the amount of calls we get, but they are taking a huge gamble and removing resources before this is in place.
As for Gucci kit (you London boy!) we have made huge advances in the past few years, but we are really pushed at major incidents, there just isn't enough of us to go round due to previous cuts.
Hope some of this has helped.
You a rock?
Cuts do not automatically make things worse; after all, the MOD has managed to sell cuts in the Armed Forces as an improvement in front-line capability and the Public bought it.
By the way Firestorm, the 48 second claim was a, slightly weak, attempt at humour and irony (think WMD, 48 hrs claim). Sorry if it passed you by![/QUOTE]
Passed me by? I t flew straight over my head!
Ta for the link the Andy P, he's looking rough these days, he must had had a tough time of it!
Think about the cuts, you're stretched now because of long term cuts, that's why you complain about providing fire cover, well its the same for us, we've had years of cuts but the latest proposed cuts are the biggest ever.
By the way Firestorm, the 48 second claim was a, slightly weak, attempt at humour and irony (think WMD, 48 hrs claim). Sorry if it passed you by![/QUOTE]
Passed me by? I t flew straight over my head!
Ta for the link the Andy P, he's looking rough these days, he must had had a tough time of it!
Think about the cuts, you're stretched now because of long term cuts, that's why you complain about providing fire cover, well its the same for us, we've had years of cuts but the latest proposed cuts are the biggest ever.
T
Twonston Pickle
Guest
Thanks Firestorm,
I can now see that the Government is doing to you what we are also experiencing; the cuts and reductions in manpower before we get the new stuff (think carriers mothballed before we even start building the replacements!).
I certainly agree that your job is dangerous and that you are taking all the action you can but we may have to agree to disagree on one thing; I don't want to stand in for you when you are on strike.
Good luck and I hope you achieve something.
I can now see that the Government is doing to you what we are also experiencing; the cuts and reductions in manpower before we get the new stuff (think carriers mothballed before we even start building the replacements!).
I certainly agree that your job is dangerous and that you are taking all the action you can but we may have to agree to disagree on one thing; I don't want to stand in for you when you are on strike.
Good luck and I hope you achieve something.
S
scallywag
Guest
Didn't the government buy something like 9 helicopters before they could train the pilots, then have to moth-ball them until they've trained the crews, by which time the helicopters will need upgrading, and the crews retraining again!!
T
Twonston Pickle
Guest
Scallywag,
You're referring to either the Apache nightmare (Army) or the disaster with Chinook HC3s (RAF). Either way, it's down to the civil serpants who can't see past their gilded pensions (even better than ours!).
You're referring to either the Apache nightmare (Army) or the disaster with Chinook HC3s (RAF). Either way, it's down to the civil serpants who can't see past their gilded pensions (even better than ours!).
T
TheHogwartsBEngO
Guest
And so starts a new thread of civil serpant bashing! hooray!
does it matter that I'll probably be one in 6 months?
(mutter mutter short service commisson mutter no extensions mutter but still recruiting mutter mutter experienced and degree qualified mutter mutter)
does it matter that I'll probably be one in 6 months?
(mutter mutter short service commisson mutter no extensions mutter but still recruiting mutter mutter experienced and degree qualified mutter mutter)
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fat lazy techie said:
Done.....what an idiot!!!
All I can say is god help the government if there was an uprising in the armed forces, and we decided not to soldier and strike.....amazing what utter chaos would develop and who would be around to stop it? Imagine the scene......not very pretty is it?
Anyway, I hope the firemen get what they want without taking action.
Good luck guys........... and great debate
D
DoesMyBumLookBigInThis?
Guest
This is an emotive subject - 4,500 + views so far! clearly a subject close to many hearts!
I spent quite a while today engrossed a in the debate (sorry boss!)
Tonight, I have been watching another of the wonderful(?) BBC documantaries on the armed forces 'shipmates' and I think it gives an interesting and easily understandable insight into life in the RN (and comedy enough for this thread they have just focused on Naval Firefighters...)
I have respect for the dangerous job that the firefighters do...I also have equal respect for paramedics, police, nurses and all those services the public sector do in the protection and service to their nation (...and of course binmen..its a dirty job, someone gotta do it)
I do of course in my natural bias have a hell of a lot of respect for the armed forces too - the boys, girls, fathers, mothers brothers, sisters and best friends who, in defence of their nation do many a thing - humanitarian, PSO and War, including some things they may not personally agree with - but they still do it - and some end up giving their lives up to that too, as of course do the other civil powers.
There are more important things in life than money & pensions etc such as family and being about to be with them...at christmas/birthdays etc so maybe give a thought to those who can't do that this year - eh?
The BBC doc is good and particularly those looking in who do not have any military experience I encourage you to watch it (and other BBC docs including the Gulf War one). I would also encourage any of those with influence to maybe get the BBC onside with the FB and make a docusoap on you guys too - lets see the real inside experience - It may not change the deep set mindset of some but maybe that would even the playing field a bit for those of us who haven't been seconded to OP FRESCO??
I'm sure that there are many FF out there who may agree with the debate but do not agree with the methodology but are bound by pressures to succumb (The same way that I am sure if there was a union for the RAF to put the pressure on for decent accommodation/less OOA/better pay etc we would too..but we can't, we don't)
I do not wholeheartedly agree with the strikes for many reasons...I do not also wholeheartedly agree with many other things that happen within my own service - but due to service obligations I am obliged to serve - take that as you will.
Good luck to all those fire fighters on duty tonight and every callout you get, Good luck to all those poor service personnel having to fill that role - You are all brave on duty
I spent quite a while today engrossed a in the debate (sorry boss!)
Tonight, I have been watching another of the wonderful(?) BBC documantaries on the armed forces 'shipmates' and I think it gives an interesting and easily understandable insight into life in the RN (and comedy enough for this thread they have just focused on Naval Firefighters...)
I have respect for the dangerous job that the firefighters do...I also have equal respect for paramedics, police, nurses and all those services the public sector do in the protection and service to their nation (...and of course binmen..its a dirty job, someone gotta do it)
I do of course in my natural bias have a hell of a lot of respect for the armed forces too - the boys, girls, fathers, mothers brothers, sisters and best friends who, in defence of their nation do many a thing - humanitarian, PSO and War, including some things they may not personally agree with - but they still do it - and some end up giving their lives up to that too, as of course do the other civil powers.
There are more important things in life than money & pensions etc such as family and being about to be with them...at christmas/birthdays etc so maybe give a thought to those who can't do that this year - eh?
The BBC doc is good and particularly those looking in who do not have any military experience I encourage you to watch it (and other BBC docs including the Gulf War one). I would also encourage any of those with influence to maybe get the BBC onside with the FB and make a docusoap on you guys too - lets see the real inside experience - It may not change the deep set mindset of some but maybe that would even the playing field a bit for those of us who haven't been seconded to OP FRESCO??
I'm sure that there are many FF out there who may agree with the debate but do not agree with the methodology but are bound by pressures to succumb (The same way that I am sure if there was a union for the RAF to put the pressure on for decent accommodation/less OOA/better pay etc we would too..but we can't, we don't)
I do not wholeheartedly agree with the strikes for many reasons...I do not also wholeheartedly agree with many other things that happen within my own service - but due to service obligations I am obliged to serve - take that as you will.
Good luck to all those fire fighters on duty tonight and every callout you get, Good luck to all those poor service personnel having to fill that role - You are all brave on duty
F
Flt Lt Badminton-Squash
Guest
FireFighters.
FireFighters.
I have read with great interest this debate and believe the arguments for both sides will be sustained for some time to come. There are pro's and con's on both sides however, there is one word that comes up on each post almost all of the time... government.
Now I know I will probably be subject to some retaliation for this... but I happen to think the FF do a very good job under the circumstances. And I also agree that the Armed Forces should not be on the streets, in any gise, except in times of civil unrule/war.
Playing 'devils advocate' here... The FF have come out on strike for more pay in the past and now for conditions however, we must ask ourselves one question... bearing in mind 'integrty', 'pride' and sense of duty....all the other superlatives mentioned above regrding loyalty. We in the Forces also complain about Pay, who gets what and who deserves the other! Now, if there were some way of the Forces taking action to gain better pay and conditions... can we all honestly sit here and put our hands on our hearts and say 'well I would not'?
If it meant that in the end; we would not spend so much time away..saying goodbye to wives and children at the door before that trip to Brize, there would not be one person doing 3/4 persons jobs (more time for leave-sport-etc), we would not have to claim 'Families Tax Credit' (to make up our poor pay as mentioned), we would not have to put up with inadquate equipment when we deply to some god forsaken country that doesn't even want us there, we would get better accommodation... better messing...etc etc.. I could go on. If we can all say that we would not strive to acheive this then we must live in a perfect world here in the military! I, for one do not think that we do. With all this in mind, I have to admit to being one who has passed the FF picket and looked over in disgust, thinking 'greedy gits' how can they put peoples lives at risk... just for greed.
Now, as many have stated here and some have shown... I believe I am of a little intelligence (some may disagree!) and feel I am able to look at what to me seems a bigger picture here. What the FF are saying here will benifit us all surely, if the FBU/Government (theres that word I mentioned) want to cut the FF's ability to fight fires, the job we are all quick to point out that 'they' should be doing not 'us', then they should be give the right conditions and equipment to do just that, surely. How can they be expected to do a job with one hand tied behind their back (does this not sound familiar). Their situation is no diferent to ours when it is boiled down to the bare bones. If this Government continues to cut defence, Fire, Police etc etc budgets and spend it in other area's which will probably be another forum on here somewhere, then are we not all in the same boat and have one common enermy (maybe a strong word but apt on this account 'I' feel).
They (the FF) have a way of expressing their concerns, whatever they may be, we do not! However, I for one feel sure that had we a medium for expressing our concerns it would be used... of that I have no doubt. We are all guilty of sitting in t-bars across the land and saying our two-peneth' worth but knowing full well there is nothing we can do to change things. We raise concerns to the top brass and what is there response (I know, I have had it), "if you dont like you know what to do"... how can that be responded to?
To quote an old frase.."we are 'all' mushooms, kept in the dark and fed sh!t" its our ability to decipher that sh!t that we are fed that makes us different. The FF are fed the same sh!t as us but on a different plate by their people, we dont like it and they, from what has been pointed out in this debate, dont like it either.
We are never going to agree with each other however, we should take the time to listen to all sides of the argument before resulting into a slanging match... us and them...blah blah... it will have no other effect but to make each other hot under the collar.
Until the government (theres that word again?) stop spending billions on things such as asylum (no I am not getting into that one, or trying to shift the blame it's a fact, it does consume a lot of money) for instance or their spending on their own government buildings...etc etc... and sort their own house out; maybe then they may be able to offer more funding in both areas, or at least hold back on the cut backs until then we are stuck with this situation...
Anyway, just a thought...
FireFighters.
I have read with great interest this debate and believe the arguments for both sides will be sustained for some time to come. There are pro's and con's on both sides however, there is one word that comes up on each post almost all of the time... government.
Now I know I will probably be subject to some retaliation for this... but I happen to think the FF do a very good job under the circumstances. And I also agree that the Armed Forces should not be on the streets, in any gise, except in times of civil unrule/war.
Playing 'devils advocate' here... The FF have come out on strike for more pay in the past and now for conditions however, we must ask ourselves one question... bearing in mind 'integrty', 'pride' and sense of duty....all the other superlatives mentioned above regrding loyalty. We in the Forces also complain about Pay, who gets what and who deserves the other! Now, if there were some way of the Forces taking action to gain better pay and conditions... can we all honestly sit here and put our hands on our hearts and say 'well I would not'?
If it meant that in the end; we would not spend so much time away..saying goodbye to wives and children at the door before that trip to Brize, there would not be one person doing 3/4 persons jobs (more time for leave-sport-etc), we would not have to claim 'Families Tax Credit' (to make up our poor pay as mentioned), we would not have to put up with inadquate equipment when we deply to some god forsaken country that doesn't even want us there, we would get better accommodation... better messing...etc etc.. I could go on. If we can all say that we would not strive to acheive this then we must live in a perfect world here in the military! I, for one do not think that we do. With all this in mind, I have to admit to being one who has passed the FF picket and looked over in disgust, thinking 'greedy gits' how can they put peoples lives at risk... just for greed.
Now, as many have stated here and some have shown... I believe I am of a little intelligence (some may disagree!) and feel I am able to look at what to me seems a bigger picture here. What the FF are saying here will benifit us all surely, if the FBU/Government (theres that word I mentioned) want to cut the FF's ability to fight fires, the job we are all quick to point out that 'they' should be doing not 'us', then they should be give the right conditions and equipment to do just that, surely. How can they be expected to do a job with one hand tied behind their back (does this not sound familiar). Their situation is no diferent to ours when it is boiled down to the bare bones. If this Government continues to cut defence, Fire, Police etc etc budgets and spend it in other area's which will probably be another forum on here somewhere, then are we not all in the same boat and have one common enermy (maybe a strong word but apt on this account 'I' feel).
They (the FF) have a way of expressing their concerns, whatever they may be, we do not! However, I for one feel sure that had we a medium for expressing our concerns it would be used... of that I have no doubt. We are all guilty of sitting in t-bars across the land and saying our two-peneth' worth but knowing full well there is nothing we can do to change things. We raise concerns to the top brass and what is there response (I know, I have had it), "if you dont like you know what to do"... how can that be responded to?
To quote an old frase.."we are 'all' mushooms, kept in the dark and fed sh!t" its our ability to decipher that sh!t that we are fed that makes us different. The FF are fed the same sh!t as us but on a different plate by their people, we dont like it and they, from what has been pointed out in this debate, dont like it either.
We are never going to agree with each other however, we should take the time to listen to all sides of the argument before resulting into a slanging match... us and them...blah blah... it will have no other effect but to make each other hot under the collar.
Until the government (theres that word again?) stop spending billions on things such as asylum (no I am not getting into that one, or trying to shift the blame it's a fact, it does consume a lot of money) for instance or their spending on their own government buildings...etc etc... and sort their own house out; maybe then they may be able to offer more funding in both areas, or at least hold back on the cut backs until then we are stuck with this situation...
Anyway, just a thought...
Sir,
a valiant and well thought out post.
Just as we are doing a bit of Government (spit) bashing may i point out that yesterday MP's decided to award themselves a 15% pay rise!
What are you going to get this year in the forces?
Us public sector militants have been told to make do with 2%, do as we say, not as we do eh?
.....and don't even ask about their new enhanced pensions!
a valiant and well thought out post.
Just as we are doing a bit of Government (spit) bashing may i point out that yesterday MP's decided to award themselves a 15% pay rise!
What are you going to get this year in the forces?
Us public sector militants have been told to make do with 2%, do as we say, not as we do eh?
.....and don't even ask about their new enhanced pensions!
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I just hope Blair and his pillocks will be ousted. They are too worried about looking after foreigners than their own people.
F
Flt Lt Badminton-Squash
Guest
FireFighters.
FireFighters.
firestorm:
Thanks you for your kind words regarding my post. I was also looking forward to a responce from trumpton however, I believe he may have had his fill of this thread?
With regards to pay, I too feel that the government have this; one rule for them and another for the rest of us! How, in these uncertain times, can they justify a 15% pay rise, it would be nice for us to set our own increase as they do and I feel sure we would not opt for 15% though?
I am afraid firestorm I too am in the same boat this year as your good self and will have make do with the overly generous 2%...trouble is...what to spend it all on... oh thats right our ever increasing council tax which has gone up 9% for the third year in a row.... in one hand out of the other and back to the government, I see a trend here...!
Anyway, just a thought...
FireFighters.
firestorm:
Thanks you for your kind words regarding my post. I was also looking forward to a responce from trumpton however, I believe he may have had his fill of this thread?
With regards to pay, I too feel that the government have this; one rule for them and another for the rest of us! How, in these uncertain times, can they justify a 15% pay rise, it would be nice for us to set our own increase as they do and I feel sure we would not opt for 15% though?
I am afraid firestorm I too am in the same boat this year as your good self and will have make do with the overly generous 2%...trouble is...what to spend it all on... oh thats right our ever increasing council tax which has gone up 9% for the third year in a row.... in one hand out of the other and back to the government, I see a trend here...!
Anyway, just a thought...
T
Twonston Pickle
Guest
What would people set as their pay rise, if we could? Me, I would probably opt for approx 5%; not too much but enough to take the sting out of all the other increases in tax.
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