I know what i'm letting myself in for... but here goes anyway...

[skevans]

It has already been discussed here that sometimes it takes forever for names of building/places to change properly in the RAF, because every time the name changes everyone still calls it by the same name.

However surely 60-odd years is long enough?

In the RAF we are broken down from top to bottom as:

RAF
Command
Group
Wing
Sqn
Flt
Detached Flt
Section

The Royal Air Force Firefighting & Rescue Squadron has existed for the greater majority of the existence of the RAF in general. A Sqn is broken down into Flights, and each station fire service is recorded to this day officially as RAF Firefighting & Rescue Squadron, Marham flight. Or Wittering flight etc...

So why are we always reffered to as a section?

Even here on the goat our presence is termed as the 'fire section'

Does this happen elsewhere in the RAF?

 

[Ex-Bay]

I came out a long time ago.
But the Fire Section was ALWAYS called that when I was in (beginning not long after they merged Fireman with Gunner).

Perhaps "Flt" was an internal matter?

.

 

[Soupdragon]

in my day each Station had its Fire Section, in the case of Mount Batten it was just one Cpl firestarter who went around counting extinguishers and looking after any choppers that were refueling in front of the mess, that didnt happen often mind you...

 

[firestorm]

Busy day Skev?
You've had a bit of a posting frenzy haven't you?DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[skevans]

Busy day Skev?
You've had a bit of a posting frenzy haven't you?DT_Xtremez_15:

Yes it has been a busy day, just relaxing with a cuppa now. Well spotted about the posting frenzy, but it was very late last night

 

[firestorm]

Ah I see tea after sherbets?
If you're on the roadDT_Xtremez_28: and passing, pop in for tiffin.

 

[skevans]

Not OTR this week mate, I'm assessing Key Skills

 

[busby1971]

No OC

No OC

Most Fire Sections don't have an officer hanging around, so nobody that hung up about a name, after all it's just a name.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Most Fire Sections don't have an officer hanging around, so nobody that hung up about a name, after all it's just a name.

Bingo. There are no Flt Lt firefighters. Ergo, you cannot have a Flt Cdr. Ergo, you cannot be a flight.

Anachronistic logic I know, but I reckon there is your answer.

 

[skevans]

Bingo. There are no Flt Lt firefighters. Ergo, you cannot have a Flt Cdr. Ergo, you cannot be a flight.

Anachronistic logic I know, but I reckon there is your answer.

Firstly an officer in Air Traffic Control or the RAF Regiment is always nominated as OC Fire Flight.

Secondly, there are firfighter officers in the RAF, although they are officially termed as 'Ops Support (Fire)'

Anachronistic, and ill perceived logic

 

[True Blue Jack]

Firstly an officer in Air Traffic Control or the RAF Regiment is always nominated as OC Fire Flight.

Secondly, there are firfighter officers in the RAF, although they are officially termed as 'Ops Support (Fire)'

Anachronistic, and ill perceived logic

Really? Where? We have an ATC Flt Lt who is the junior subordinate commander for the fire section but she is not "OC Fire Flight" and her role is effectively a secondary duty.

 

[auchtermuchty]

I came out a long time ago.
But the Fire Section was ALWAYS called that when I was in (beginning not long after they merged Fireman with Gunner).

Perhaps "Flt" was an internal matter?

.

not being versed on the history of this but couldnt it be a hangover from the explanation of merging above? Doesnt 'section' mean something specific to the gunner/brown job types?

Its only a guess and is probably wildly inaccurate.

 

[skevans]

Really? Where? We have an ATC Flt Lt who is the junior subordinate commander for the fire section but she is not "OC Fire Flight" and her role is effectively a secondary duty.

I am afraid I don't have that info on me, but believe me they are out there somewhere. The officer cadre is quite new, they used to get absorbed into the RAF Regiment far too quickly as that was our only option for branch commisioning.
Incidentally, as the branch 'beds in' there will eventually open up higher ranks. in 2010 the RAF will appoint two ops support (Fire) Wing Commanders!

not being versed on the history of this but couldnt it be a hangover from the explanation of merging above? Doesnt 'section' mean something specific to the gunner/brown job types?

Its only a guess and is probably wildly inaccurate.

It's possible considering the Regiments heavy use of army terms. Incidentally i am one of the final few guys to have joined the gunner - F'man trade.

However when all is said and done a section is a small group, as little as four men, so a 35 man station doesn't really fit the bill.

 

[auchtermuchty]

However when all is said and done a section is a small group, as little as four men, so a 35 man station doesn't really fit the bill.

how many make up a crew?

 

[True Blue Jack]

It's possible considering the Regiments heavy use of army terms. Incidentally i am one of the final few guys to have joined the gunner - F'man trade.

However when all is said and done a section is a small group, as little as four men, so a 35 man station doesn't really fit the bill.

The term section has been used since the RAF's inception to describe strength of aircraft numbers. Traditionally, the hierarchy is Group => Wing => Squadron => Flight => Section. So in simple terms a section is a formation that is smaller than a flight, nothing more or less. A section of Lancasters would comprise a great deal more than 4 men, but a section of Spitfires might be only 2. The system of classification doesn't really work any more because we never seem to operate in Squadron or even Flight strength, and the days of Bader's 'Big Wing' will certainly never return.

P.S. The Ops Spt (Fire) branch must be very new since I can find no mention of it on the RAF careers website nor in AP3393 (Terms & Conditions of Service for Officers). Where does this new branch leave the DOs/ADOs of the DFRS?

 

[skevans]

how many make up a crew?

A crew can be as little as two, However Watch strength ranges from 4 - 16 dependent on the category of the risk.

The term section has been used since the RAF's inception to describe strength of aircraft numbers. Traditionally, the hierarchy is Group => Wing => Squadron => Flight => Section. So in simple terms a section is a formation that is smaller than a flight, nothing more or less. A section of Lancasters would comprise a great deal more than 4 men, but a section of Spitfires might be only 2. The system of classification doesn't really work any more because we never seem to operate in Squadron or even Flight strength, and the days of Bader's 'Big Wing' will certainly never return.

I quite agree, but what I was getting at, was the supposition that the word section may have been used due to our former days as part of the RAF Regiment. The RAF Regiment do many things more in line with our Army than the RAF. Including using the word section to define a 'rifle section' etc. Which I am led to believe can consist of as little as four men.

P.S. The Ops Spt (Fire) branch must be very new since I can find no mention of it on the RAF careers website nor in AP3393 (Terms & Conditions of Service for Officers).

The branch is fairly new, opened about two years ago if memory serves correctly. A friend of mine went to Cranwell for an interview in October and the panel didn't know about it! The branch is only open to firefighters and does not allow direct entry from civvie street.

Where does this new branch leave the DOs/ADOs of the DFRS?

Who cares. They have never been put in full time command of the RAF element anyway. So they will probably just keep getting fatter and older and more useless day by day.

 

[firestorm]

Surely your ADO's and DO's should modernise and become managers and thus even more of an irrelevance, in line with the civilian F&RS?::

 

[skevans]

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[Teh Wal]

.. The system of classification doesn't really work any more because we never seem to operate in Squadron or even Flight strength, ...

Both 22 Squadron and 202 Squadron operate at Flight strength/level. Each has a HQ element and each has 3 flights dispersed around the UK. Generally each flight has 2 aircraft (Sea King HAR 3 or 3A) DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[alanpartridge]

Watch Strengths

Watch Strengths

Quote:
Originally Posted by auchtermuchty
how many make up a crew?

Reply by Skevens "A crew can be as little as two, However Watch strength ranges from 4 - 16 dependent on the category of the risk".

Skevens,
Don't mean to come over as a clever dick but I believe there are at least four fire stations on the MOD estate still running at a watch strength of three. All are crash cat 1 and three on watch is pushing it a tad, to say the least, on managing and dealing with the risk. Four would be an absolute luxury if and when it happens.