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Fast track SNCO's

M

MrMasher

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Sorry to butt in here but as an outsider I wouldnt mind someone explaining to what FOA's are?
As a techie I just see the tower and the person in it who signs up my airfield permit and sometimes I get to ask permission for this and that across the radio.
What is the real reason behind this fast tracking? There are some very young SNCO's in your trade and to be honest it shows when they get roped into station duties. We all may flounder a bit outside of our trade, but it comes with experience and time served in my opinion.
This isnt a bash at you guys as I could say the same about airmen aircrew SNCO's, more a gentle observation and the wondering why you have to have these fast tracking/young SNCO's?
 
S

SirSaltyHelmet

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Mr Masher

Good question and I will try and answer it.

Until about 5 years ago the maximum age to enter training for controller was 35. That is quite a high age to enter what is an intensive and mind boggling course. Therefore, it was deemed that the controlling age maximum should become 28. This gives the guys a better chance of passing the course and also giving back a bigger return to the trade.

There were three options, leave it as it is and give everyone eligible a go, the second was to have a fast track system for the younger entrants to the trade and the third one was direct entry SNCO similar to the AA.

They decided on the fast track system. Following selection at Cranwell an ATCA as they are known will do the same TG9 course at Shawbury as the FOA. Following that couple of months of Trade Training they will go to their new unit for up to five years. After two years they become eligible for selection for controller training and if they have positive recommendations then they will go forward to the controller selection board. At this point I will emphasise that the selection is based on controlling abilities and not on SNCO qualities. Once selected for controller training the selectee will then complete JMLC prior to starting the controller course as an A/Sgt paid as a Cpl.

After uccesfully completing the controller course the knew Sgt is still acting but now Acting paid. After validating in various positions and completing IMLC the controller then gets his substantive.

It is all about controlling age, and getting the most benefit out of them. Word on the street is that direct entry Sgts are on the way in, but that is a different topic.

Hope this helps
 
J

juan kossof

Guest
It was originally to address a chronic shortage of Controllers, apparently younger people have a greater capacity for learning!!!
It does mean that people are being promoted to Sgt very quickly....it has been known for them to bypass the rank of Corporal completely. This is due to the fact that they are selected purely on their aptitude for Controller duties...not on their skills as a manager.
Unfortunately the wider RAF sees them as full up Sergeants and in some cases their lack of experience does show up (not in all I might add before some of you jump down my throat!!).
 
C

Chaka

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MrMasher said:
There are some very young SNCO's in your trade and to be honest it shows when they get roped into station duties. We all may flounder a bit outside of our trade, but it comes with experience and time served in my opinion.
This isnt a bash at you guys as I could say the same about airmen aircrew SNCO's, more a gentle observation and the wondering why you have to have these fast tracking/young SNCO's?
Click to expand...

True, but the standard of ATC JO arriving at CATCS has also fallen. Would be safe to say that is just a sad reflection of the society we live in?:pDT_Xtremez_40:

I know there has been a lot of effort put into 'educating' the baby SNCOs when they arrive on the School but like it or not they are immature and like the JOs require a lot of guidance after controller training.
 
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T

The Controller

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A wise and lucid response Chaka as usual! SirSalty, that was also a thorough and comprehensive reason/explanation...if only some of the JATCC students knew as much!

The theory that the younger person finds it easier to learn is understandable, but basically flawed. This assumption is based on the fact that youth will always win out...and we ALL know (well, all of us approaching 60!) that this is not the case. Maturity does play a positive role.

The 'Fast Trackers' have generally done reasonably well...but not really any better than 'normal' entrants.

I asked on another thread about how this knock-on effect of fast trackers (Sgts who have been an SAC the day before) will eventually effect Mess life as we know it? Of course...it's not just the Mess, but the middle-manager level in general.

There you go...an old man's ramblings again!:pDT_Xtremez_28:
 
S

SirSaltyHelmet

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With regard to Mess life, is it up to the Wobbly Oranges and the longer in the tooth members to bring them into line?

They have been trained to a high standard as controllers, they just lack the expirience to be managers.

I still think they should do Airman Aircrew School for some of the mess aspects and leadership
 
E

ED-SET

LAC
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SirSaltyHelmet;At this point I will emphasise that the selection is based on controlling abilities and not on SNCO qualities. [/QUOTE said:
Unless it has changed recently, the assessment form for controller training had a drop down menu for SNCO suitability (high rec etc.) with a box for the supporting narrative? ? ?
Click to expand...
 
F

FOMz

Warrant Officer
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Its an imperfect system. It unfortunate that they go hand in hand, but its what we've got.

DE SNCO controllers anyone? :pDT_Xtremez_14:
 
D

Dreg

Guest
SirSaltyHelmet said:
How can a 2 year SAC be assessed on SNCO qualities?
Click to expand...

Actually during the selection process at the AFCO they ask for 1/2 descent leadership quality’s which in fairness I had difficulty trying to dig one up. Especially at age 17. Thank god for the ATC!
 
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S

Soon To Leave

Proud To Serve
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And remember you are signing for suitability as a controller SNCO where you are comparing against SNCOs within the same trade.

But then all trades will do the same. We compare against our peers not against other trades.
 
S

Soon To Leave

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I know, but they will be comparing against existing SNCO's within their own trade otherwise with their lack of age and experience, no one would be considered.
 
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NotAnIDOYet

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The FOMz said:
Its an imperfect system. It unfortunate that they go hand in hand, but its what we've got.

DE SNCO controllers anyone? :pDT_Xtremez_14:
Click to expand...

In the TG12 world we have a similar system for SNCO Weapon Controllers. Whilst it does produce good, young and thrusting controllers, they do lack in the experience part of having been a JNCO (not all of them I may add)

We have brought back in a PROMEX type of thing to try and combat some of the inexperience issues, people have to have passed the first part of the prom (a distance learning package with a formal exam), therefore being eligible for promotion to Cpl, before they can be selected for promotion. This was how we stopped PMA going for DE WCs
 
M

MrMasher

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Well thanks for all the replies. Thanks FOMz for setting up the new thread as well.
I think I am showing some ignorance here.
I have been in for 15 and a half years and I thought ATC was just one big trade and some of them got to do opsy jobs on the sqns.
Whats with the FOM's FOA's etc? I mean what do they stand for and what do they do?
What do the fast tracked SNCO's do in these controlling jobs? I'd guess along the lines of shift controller?
I just had an image of lots of sac's and cpl's looking at scopes wearing headsets with SNCO's and zobs running em all!
Lots of questions but as I said in the 1st post I just see someone once a year for my airfield permit and talk occasionally on the radio to the tower.
It's quite bad really that as an aircraft techie I really dont know what occurs on the other side of the pan!

As for the points that The Controller made
I asked on another thread about how this knock-on effect of fast trackers (Sgts who have been an SAC the day before) will eventually effect Mess life as we know it? Of course...it's not just the Mess, but the middle-manager level in general
Click to expand...
You could infer that to anyone really who has been made acting SNCO and is entitled to use the mess. Some AA also need some ettiquette lessons but they are entitled to use the mess also!:pDT_Xtremez_28:
 
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NotAnIDOYet

Guest
MrMasher said:
You could infer that to anyone really who has been made acting SNCO and is entitled to use the mess. Some AA also need some ettiquette lessons but they are entitled to use the mess also!:pDT_Xtremez_28:
Click to expand...

Right on there MrMasher, but I think this was dealt with in another place!!
 
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