Reds "incident"...

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

I would have thought that whatever the reason was, if it was repeatable by equipment or maintenance failure you would know by now. If it was repeatable by procedure, those that do would know by now.

Then it's just waiting time for the investigation to be published.

I seem to remember many moons ago a bag being stuffed down the right hand side of the seat triggering the man/sep by bending the linkage as the seat pan was lowered, that was notified almost immediately to all relevant people and mods ensued.

That just expands what my post was about. Reasons are about due to flight safety.

 

[gemarriott]

That just expands what my post was about. Reasons are about due to flight safety.

Sorry but I don't follow WTF you are saying.

How can flight safety be affected by telling people what happened? Unless of course you are just spouting bollocks

 

[briggfairy]

look guys i work on the reds and so far we haven't been told what happened so anything anyone puts on this thread is simply speculation, i guess everyone who knows the seats has their own theory but until someone comes out and says with some degree of certainty what happened then all anyone puts on here might as well be written by j k rowling DT_Xtremez_41:

 

[vim_fuego]

look guys i work on the reds and so far we haven't been told what happened so anything anyone puts on this thread is simply speculation, i guess everyone who knows the seats has their own theory but until someone comes out and says with some degree of certainty what happened then all anyone puts on here might as well be written by j k rowling DT_Xtremez_41:

Speculation aside hows the mood and morale on the reds at the moment? Its been a tough year for you...

I was on Ellamy in Cyprus when you guys were doing your training camp and on the couple of days I got free one of them was in the rugby club when you had your fancy dress BBQ/party...really impressed with the effort and esprite de corp you all displayed...None of you could have imagined what was about to happen.

 

[gemarriott]

look guys i work on the reds and so far we haven't been told what happened so anything anyone puts on this thread is simply speculation, i guess everyone who knows the seats has their own theory but until someone comes out and says with some degree of certainty what happened then all anyone puts on here might as well be written by j k rowling DT_Xtremez_41:

Alleyfcukinglooya a voice of reason at last.

 

[spike7451]

I would have thought that whatever the reason was, if it was repeatable by equipment or maintenance failure you would know by now. If it was repeatable by procedure, those that do would know by now.

Then it's just waiting time for the investigation to be published.

I seem to remember many moons ago a bag being stuffed down the right hand side of the seat triggering the man/sep by bending the linkage as the seat pan was lowered, that was notified almost immediately to all relevant people and mods ensued.

Was it a Horror Bag?....I'll bet it was the frozen dohnut that did it?.....

 

[John Lloyd]

BBC News 'Reds cleared to fly'

 

[spike7451]

I received a reply from the PCC over the complaint of the Daily Hate's intrusion;

Thank you for writing to us about the Daily Mail’s coverage of the tragic death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham. We have been contacted by a number of members of the public about this issue.



Shortly after Flt Lt Cunningham’s death, the Commission was in touch with representatives of the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team (the Red Arrows) , which agreed to – at an appropriate time – make Flt Lt Cunningham’s family aware of our services and how we can help. We have been in contact on a number of further occasions, and the family have recently confirmed that they do not wish to pursue a complaint in relation to this matter.



As you may be aware, the PCC enforces the terms of the Editors’ Code of Practice. In cases made under Clause 5 (Intrusion into grief and shock) of the Code, the Commission generally will require the input of those directly involved, such as the family, in order to understand the impact of the coverage. We would also require their co-operation and consent in order to pursue the matter. This is particularly the case since the outcome of any Commission investigation – such as an apology, or adjudication – would require the permission of those close to the deceased. More information about the Commission’s rules in this regard may be seen here: http://www.pcc.org.uk/faqs.html#faq4_7



Given that the family has confirmed, through their representatives, that they do not wish to complain about the coverage, it will prove difficult to proceed with a complaint. However, you will note that the Commission does, occasionally, decide to waive these rules in situations where an exceptional public interest can be demonstrated. Should you wish, I will ask the Commission to consider waiving its normal rules to investigate the matter. If so, I would be grateful if you could outline your argument for it to do so. The Commission will then decide whether it wishes to take your complaint forward.



Yours sincerely

Simon Yip

Administrator

 

[Teh Wal]

And your response to them is what given that the family "...do not wish to complain about the coverage..."?

 

[propersplitbrainme]

Good heavens...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-37475298

Ejector seat firm to be prosecuted by UK's Health and Safety Executive over death of Red Arrows pilot in 2011


This breaking news story is being updated and more details will be published shortly. Please refresh the page for the fullest version.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

Good heavens...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-37475298

Ejector seat firm to be prosecuted by UK's Health and Safety Executive over death of Red Arrows pilot in 2011


This breaking news story is being updated and more details will be published shortly. Please refresh the page for the fullest version.

Will this have potential far reaching consequences for older seats fitted to Tonkas etc? I see a massive arse covering exercise on the horizon.

 

[Barch]

Will this have potential far reaching consequences for older seats fitted to Tonkas etc? I see a massive arse covering exercise on the horizon.

I can't see any problems myself, how many incidents have occurred during the probable millions of crew ins / crew outs of that mark of seat used by several major air forces in the world.

Also taking into account that the pilot allegedly did not follow procedures correctly.

 

[Oldstacker]

I can't see any problems myself, how many incidents have occurred during the probable millions of crew ins / crew outs of that mark of seat used by several major air forces in the world.

Also taking into account that the pilot allegedly did not follow procedures correctly.

Hmm, suggest you read the actual investigation report (well worth the time). Although there was bad practice (across the whole team) in the insertion of the pins after flights, the major defect that led to the fatality was not the uncommanded firing of the seat but the failure of the main 'chute to extract at the necessary point after the seat fired. All the crew ins and crew outs in the world will not have proved the chutes would extract if the seat was fired.

The report highlights yet again the 'cheese slice' effect of factors all coming together to cause an accident.

 

[mild mannered janitor]

When i spent time as an instructor on tonkas (line training) i point bank refused to do see off sometimes when crews thought it was acceptable to stuff bags/trainers and all sorts sown the back of the seats to go on det's/jollys. it's an escape system. nobody can 100% say that explosive is going to work.

sometimes bags in and around AAES will cause problems.

Sad but true.

 

[Blue72]

I believe that Martin Baker actually admitted at the time that a vital bit of information was rolled out to users of these seats across the world but for some reason not the RAF. I'm guessing that is what the HSE's prosecution will hang on. Rightly so - if a life was lost due to "Oops, did we forget to tell you...?"

 

[ady eflog]

I believe that Martin Baker actually admitted at the time that a vital bit of information was rolled out to users of these seats across the world but for some reason not the RAF. I'm guessing that is what the HSE's prosecution will hang on. Rightly so - if a life was lost due to "Oops, did we forget to tell you...?"

Its still not a zero zero seat, its not designed to operate on the ground. Sadly he might not have made it if the seat functioned correctly anyway, this was a error in not passing on information but you can't pin the death on them, they didnt initiate the seat. that's the root cause of the incident.

 

[FootTapper]

All the crew ins and crew outs in the world will not have proved the chutes would extract if the seat was fired.

The report highlights yet again the 'cheese slice' effect of factors all coming together to cause an accident.

To expand further on your observation - it was determined that the aircraft only needed to be travelling at (I believe) 50 knots for the drogue chute to have created enough force to override the jammed drogue shackle and deploy the main.

Which makes you wonder how many other seats may have had this exact same interference fit between drogue shackle and scissor shackle and yet still functioned successfully because the ejection happened at speed rather than zero/zero.

Yet another slice of cheese where the hole lined up on this occasion, but might have been the only thing preventing a tragedy on previous, successful, ejections.

 

[Blue72]

Its still not a zero zero seat, its not designed to operate on the ground. Sadly he might not have made it if the seat functioned correctly anyway, this was a error in not passing on information but you can't pin the death on them, they didnt initiate the seat. that's the root cause of the incident.

I'm a little confused now - this is a Mk10 seat? I understood that they were zero/zero? (If I'm missing a technical point then please accept my apologies - obviously I'm looking at this from a layman's perspective).

From a H&S perspective, there is a difference on occasion between the cause of the incident, and the cause of the loss of life. I suspect that difference is the focus for the HSE. I this case the seat being inadvertently fired didn't cause the loss of life, the shackle being over tightened did, and it would appear that the correct information being provided *could* have prevented that. I'm still surprised it's taken them so long to decide to move on it though, and can only assume that something new has come to light for them to take it forwards at this late stage.

This telegraph article at the time of the inquest gives further details: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ed-to-warn-MOD-of-Red-Arrows-safety-flaw.html

 

[Oldstacker]

Its still not a zero zero seat, its not designed to operate on the ground. Sadly he might not have made it if the seat functioned correctly anyway, this was a error in not passing on information but you can't pin the death on them, they didnt initiate the seat. that's the root cause of the incident.

The Narrative of Events in the report of the Service Inquiry clearly states that the seat was Zero Zero safe.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/277774/XX177Part_1_3_narrative.pdf Para 1.3.7

 

[FootTapper]

I'm a little confused now - this is a Mk10 seat? I understood that they were zero/zero? (If I'm missing a technical point then please accept my apologies - obviously I'm looking at this from a layman's perspective).

You are correct -it absolutely is a zero/zero seat and was operated in conditions which should have been survivable had it functioned correctly.