Reds "incident"...

[Barch]

In addition to Vim's post.

A very bold statement by Martin Baker. If it does come out that there was a problem with the seat it would be the end of Martin Baker.

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

If it does come out that there was a problem with the seat it would be the end of Martin Baker.

I wouldn`t think so. They`re still the leaders in the market, who`d step up and fill the void if they went ?

 

[Barch]

A very bold statement by Martin Baker. If it does come out that there was a problem with the seat it would be the end of Martin Baker.

I wouldn`t think so. They`re still the leaders in the market, who`d step up and fill the void if they went ?

Would you trust a company that manufactures life preservation equipment if they lied to the market?

Plenty of companies out there that would love to take on MBs market share including ...

Weber Aircraft
RD&PE Zvezda
Douglas
Stencel / UPCo
Yakovlev

 

[GD on Wheels]

So are they falling back on the old excuse the pilot must have activated it?

 

[Barch]

So are they falling back on the old excuse the pilot must have activated it?

Or maybe (but very very doubtful) there was a maintenance error?

 

[MontyPlumbs]

There's some quite ridculous speculation going on on this thread.

Why don't you wait for the BOI to present it's findings?

What is trying to guess what killed the guy going to achieve? Especially as many of the posters on this thread don't know what they are talking about.

 

[MAINJAFAD]

There's some quite ridculous speculation going on on this thread.

Why don't you wait for the BOI to present it's findings?

What is trying to guess what killed the guy going to achieve? Especially as many of the posters on this thread don't know what they are talking about.

Correct MP, if this had been a Hawk from Valley or Leeming nobody would be talking about it.

In addition to Vim's post.

A very bold statement by Martin Baker. If it does come out that there was a problem with the seat it would be the end of Martin Baker.

Nope, there have been a few failures caused by design flaws in MB Seats over the years which have lead to the death of aircrew. The death of the BAe Tornado nav and a BAe Harrier Test Pilot are two that I can name off the top of my head alone (though in both cases what was thought to have failed was never recovered), plus there was a Saudi pilot that was killed ejecting from a Spainish Typhoon a short while back when his seat harness failed. What MB is saying is that as far as they can see, everything on the seat in this case operated as it should have done.

Looks like the speculators may have been a bit off the mark with scissor shackle failure and the like:

http://www.martin-baker.com/getdoc/613a0e91-0e5b-4f15-84aa-8ebff5f43a5e/Press-Releases.aspx

Jimps

Scissor Shackle didn't fail, what Martin Baker said in their CAA directive was if the Drogue Shackle wasn't free to move on the Scissor Shackle, it could get caught on part of the Scissor shackle after it opened which would result the drouge staying attached to the seat and the main parachute not deploying. The offending Shakles are shown below (with the two disconnected and the scissor closed). Still doesn't explain why the seat fired in the first place.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

There's some quite ridculous speculation going on on this thread.

Why don't you wait for the BOI to present it's findings?

What is trying to guess what killed the guy going to achieve? Especially as many of the posters on this thread don't know what they are talking about.

Very true, but a company like Martin Baker wouldn't come up with a statement like they have unless they are very sure why this incident occured. As for the BOI, that will be some time before it hits the street. Any whiff of reasons outside design flaw and tech failure with involve other investigations to conclude prior to it being seen in service circles and the public domain. That will be some time I reckon as for the last seat death happened well over a year before the findings hit the street. I have my opinions on some of the matters on this, purely on the CAA AD and MJ has illustrated them in his previous post, but as he has also said, the whole picture isn't obvious.

 

[John Lloyd]

If man/seat separation did not take place and there is no design or mechanical fault. Then MB stand proud.

The questions for the BOI will therefore be:

Why or how was the ejection sequence initiated?

Why or how was man/seat separation prevented within the seats operational design envelope?

Until then opinions are like @rseholes, everyones got one.

 

[MAINJAFAD]

If man/seat separation did not take place and there is no design or mechanical fault. Then MB stand proud.

The questions for the BOI will therefore be:

Why or how was the ejection sequence initiated?

Why or how was man/seat separation prevented within the seats operational design envelope?

Until then opinions are like @rseholes, everyones got one.

Anybody who knows how a Martin Baker Mk 10 seat works knows that at least two things went wrong in this incident, as for the man/seat seperation, the ejection happened right at the bottom limit of that design envelope, thus any malfunction would most likely be as in this case, fatal. Only the BOI will answer the first question.

 

[Realist78]

So are they falling back on the old excuse the pilot must have activated it?

In your experience, when have 'they' used the old excuse that the pilot must have activated it?

 

[dctyke]

Although I have been a member lurking for quite a while this is my 1st post. A few facts from a long career spent working on and around ejection seats:

I do not infer any particular link to the accident, just the regime for what is the last chance of survival.

When I first started working in a seat bay in the late 70's seats were serviced in the bay every 6 months. Every 'other' service was a deep strip whilst the alternate one was mainly a check for accidental damage to the seat and fabrics. Over a 6 month period hundreds of people get in and out of the cockpit and there are many parts on the sides of seats with potential for damage, also fabrics like leg lines and straps frayed.

In the mid 80's this changed to a deep strip servicing in the bay every 12 months. This did lead to an increase in call outs to the sqns to check things, mainly fabric fraying.

In the 90's it changed to every 2 years with even more call outs, however Ej Seat bay staff were on hand to check things.

I left the RAF 4 years ago. The talk then was to close seats bays (So no expertise to call on). Change servicing yet again to every 5 years and carry out the servicing at a 'centralised' centre somewhere in the uk (Ej Seats arriving on units crated up). As I have not set foot on a base since I left I cannot confirm if this happened.

Risk management, at least someone high up will have got promoted out of it...................................

 

[gemarriott]

Although I have been a member lurking for quite a while this is my 1st post. A few facts from a long career spent working on and around ejection seats:

I do not infer any particular link to the accident, just the regime for what is the last chance of survival.

When I first started working in a seat bay in the late 70's seats were serviced in the bay every 6 months. Every 'other' service was a deep strip whilst the alternate one was mainly a check for accidental damage to the seat and fabrics. Over a 6 month period hundreds of people get in and out of the cockpit and there are many parts on the sides of seats with potential for damage, also fabrics like leg lines and straps frayed.

In the mid 80's this changed to a deep strip servicing in the bay every 12 months. This did lead to an increase in call outs to the sqns to check things, mainly fabric fraying.

In the 90's it changed to every 2 years with even more call outs, however Ej Seat bay staff were on hand to check things.

I left the RAF 4 years ago. The talk then was to close seats bays (So no expertise to call on). Change servicing yet again to every 5 years and carry out the servicing at a 'centralised' centre somewhere in the uk (Ej Seats arriving on units crated up). As I have not set foot on a base since I left I cannot confirm if this happened.

Risk management, at least someone high up will have got promoted out of it...................................

In the early 70s seats were changed every 6 months, cartridges every 24 months but just before I bailed out (that was pun for those intellectually challenged) it had changed to every 12 months service and cart lives were increased. Safety equipment moved to 12 months from 3 months for servicing. Although it was less work for us on the squadrons it seemed as if it was cost cutting rather than good practice.

 

[shoutingwind]

If the seat didn't fail, will the Cunninghams get a MB tie and be allowed to be part of the club???

 

[John Lloyd]

If the seat didn't fail, will the Cunninghams get a MB tie and be allowed to be part of the club???

The seat did fail, just not due to mechanical or design fault.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

I was told today why the seat fired.. I won't say why, cos it isn't my place to do so. I think our aircrew breathen have been told why as well.

 

[Jocktheplumber]

I was told today why the seat fired.. I won't say why, cos it isn't my place to do so. I think our aircrew breathen have been told why as well.

tell us what you heard. I work with Mk10 Seats every day. If you have proper info, then pass it on.

I've no morbid interest in what happened to what happened to the Pilot, just what caused the accident.

 

[ady eflog]

He either pulled it out of the way perhaps whilst pin-ing it up and it went off or something else like FOD set it off. They dont go off on their own. Either way its a waste of a life.

 

[mild mannered janitor]

I was told today why the seat fired.. I won't say why, cos it isn't my place to do so. I think our aircrew breathen have been told why as well.

then don't cause speculation what is this ? nah nah nah i know something you don't ? It happened lets just wait for the BOI and find out that way.
If you know and cant say then why spark intrest ?

 

[John Lloyd]

tell us what you heard. I work with Mk10 Seats every day. If you have proper info, then pass it on.

I've no morbid interest in what happened to what happened to the Pilot, just what caused the accident.

I would have thought that whatever the reason was, if it was repeatable by equipment or maintenance failure you would know by now. If it was repeatable by procedure, those that do would know by now.

Then it's just waiting time for the investigation to be published.

I seem to remember many moons ago a bag being stuffed down the right hand side of the seat triggering the man/sep by bending the linkage as the seat pan was lowered, that was notified almost immediately to all relevant people and mods ensued.