Ordering an Airman to spend their own money

[Grymreaper]

I need a little advice/confirmation

I work in a team that is multi-service (RAF and Army) and there is an upcoming Force Development event to the houses of parliament.

For some reason, the Army gets a raging hard-on about Corps Ties and the WO1 in charge of the section has said everyone must have a corps/RAF branded tie. I protested that I didn't have an RAF tie other than the black on issued and he basically said go an buy one or you will be MAA/AGAI'ed.

First of all, can you be ordered to use your own money (albeit it only a small amount but the concept is the same) to but stuff for duty, and if yes can you have administrative action against you for not complying with the order?

and also, can you be ordered to use your own vehicle for 'duty' transport without getting any money back? So again, we have been told that we must make our own way to the train station for the onward journey to London but there will be no compensation for that travel (Petrol costs/Taxi/Bus). The train to London is funded but the travel to the station isn't.

I know this may all seem menial to some 'stop being a cockwomble and just spend the money' but I didnt think that you could be ordered to be out of pocket for a work related activity.

I am happy to be proven that this is incorrect as long as the JSP/QR/official document states so.

Grym

 

[muttywhitedog]

Is attendance compulsory, or have you volunteered to attend?

 

[busby1971]

In my experience of such situations the Army lads will jumps at the chance of buying some regimental gear and a day out of the office, so he won’t understand your concerns or where you are coming from, I’d recommend just biting th bullet and joining in, otherwise come PDR time your bulshy attitude will be noted.

Try eBay or an old surplus store and try to get a bargain.

 

[Talk Wrench]

Is attendance compulsory, or have you volunteered to attend?

Or possibly, "has been volunteered" to attend?

 

[Barch]

Or go in uniform, afterall it is an official visit.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Or possibly, "has been volunteered" to attend?

I doubt very much that anyone could be forced to not only attend an event, but be forced to be out of pocket for doing so. I await the OP's response to my question with baited breath...

 

[Barch]

It is a regular thing in the Army, i have known erks that had to chip in to buy a new piece of silver for the offices mess.

 

[Grymreaper]

Is attendance compulsory, or have you volunteered to attend?

It's a compulsory event for all in the section. Non-attendance will result in... you can guess... and MAA/AGAI.

Uniform isn't an option as it's not in the Admin Order, failure to adhere to the Admin Order will result in... MAA/AGAI.

I understand what you guys have said about just sucking it up and paying the money but I want to know, are they allowed to do this, not what solution should I take to this issue.

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but if I have to drive myself to the train station and there is an accident of some sort, the RAF will wash their hands of me because it wasn't a 'Duty' journey, because if it was it would be funded. And my insurance company would bail out because I was using the car for business (not just commuting to a single place of work)

I know this may seem like I'm making a big thing out of nothing, but all I am really looking for is can they legally put you out of pocket for a work-related matter.

Grym

 

[ninjarabbi]

I had to put up with the same crap at Headley Court, even when the CO was actually RAF. He was such a weak character we had to adhere to all Army regulations even down to paying for Mess functions you couldn't attend due to being on duty and SNCOs having their rooms inspected weekly.

 

[Barch]

Why are the Amy so anal?

 

[muttywhitedog]

I know this may seem like I'm making a big thing out of nothing, but all I am really looking for is can they legally put you out of pocket for a work-related matter.

No you are not Grym, but it depends whether you become the first person to take a stance, or whether you choose to leave that for somebody else.

If you were to submit a claim for MMA and it got audited and you were reported for fraud, it would be very hard for the MOD to prove that you were acting fraudulently, as you would only be claiming what you are entitled to. Similarly, if you were to submit a claim for an item of clothing, citing the Admin Order as authority and had it turned down, then again it would depend whether or not you wished to push and push it to the point of going to a journo to highlight the bullying.

I'm no longer in, but have recently taken a stance against someone in my organisation who was overstepping their grade to single me out for "special attention" (not in a sexual sense!). A lot of folk told me to let it be, but I challenged it, confronted them armed with facts and they backed down very quickly with their reputation amongst the senior management in tatters. Its highly likely that the individual has now reached their career ceiling as a result of trying to bully me.

Whichever you choose, good luck.

 

[StickyFingers]

Nope, not 1 bit, **** that.

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but if I have to drive myself to the train station and there is an accident of some sort, the RAF will wash their hands of me because it wasn't a 'Duty' journey, because if it was it would be funded. And my insurance company would bail out because I was using the car for business (not just commuting to a single place of work)

Says it all.

 

[Barch]

You must have an RAF 'upper cover' that can get involved.

 

[Dan_Brown]

For some reason, the Army gets a raging hard-on about Corps Ties and the WO1 in charge of the section has said everyone must have a corps/RAF branded tie. I protested that I didn't have an RAF tie other than the black on issued and he basically said go an buy one or you will be MAA/AGAI'ed.

First of all, can you be ordered to use your own money (albeit it only a small amount but the concept is the same) to but stuff for duty, and if yes can you have administrative action against you for not complying with the order?

No, you can't be ordered to spend your own money (unless there is the option to claim it back). This is an Armyism and they can MAA/AGAI you, but if you challenged it, then they would be stuffed as it's an illegal order.

and also, can you be ordered to use your own vehicle for 'duty' transport without getting any money back? So again, we have been told that we must make our own way to the train station for the onward journey to London but there will be no compensation for that travel (Petrol costs/Taxi/Bus). The train to London is funded but the travel to the station isn't.

If it's a duty, then MT should be provided or you CHOOSE to use your own vehicle. However, if no MT was available and i had to use my own vehicle, then I would be submitting a claim, although you have identified petrol costs etc, what about parking? That won't be cheap for all day at a train station.

I know this may all seem menial to some 'stop being a cockwomble and just spend the money' but I didnt think that you could be ordered to be out of pocket for a work related activity.

What's right or wrong (and this is definitely wrong) now comes down to how far you push this. Accept it and be the grey man or challenge this and although no doubt you would win, what would the overall impact be to your working life and SJARs?

Pick your battles carefully, but this sounds like a shit situation - can you not flag this up the RAF chain and let them deal?

 

[unruly1986]

One for the diaspora methinks.

 

[Barch]

Maybe a quick email to CASWO, he will probably relish the task of putting the grunts in their box.

 

[Grymreaper]

Thanks for all the good advice and information, I must have been around the Army too long as I was half expecting all the answers to be 'Suck it up'

The event is on the 24th (Monday) and although it's going to **** me off and make me angry, I'm going to do as was suggested and pick my battles carefully. It's pretty shitty knowing you are in the right, but highlighting it will make your career and life a lot worse but in this instance, I think it's the better of the two evils. So ill buy the RAF tie and make my way to the Station (probably by taxi/Uber) and keep things pleasant.

Oh, what a world we live in.

Thank you again.

Grym

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

Thanks for all the good advice and information, I must have been around the Army too long as I was half expecting all the answers to be 'Suck it up'

The event is on the 24th (Monday) and although it's going to **** me off and make me angry, I'm going to do as was suggested and pick my battles carefully. It's pretty shitty knowing you are in the right, but highlighting it will make your career and life a lot worse but in this instance, I think it's the better of the two evils. So ill buy the RAF tie and make my way to the Station (probably by taxi/Uber) and keep things pleasant.

Oh, what a world we live in.

Thank you again.

Grym

Remember this for when you're climbing the greasy pole.
Never put your lads in the same position, it'll be your job to stand up for those that can't.

Good luck.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Good luck Grym.

Now this is a message to those in the upper echalons who read this. (I know you do because 10 years ago I ended up having a one-way chat with OC PMS about a post on here that I made relating to DWR turn-round times that some FS at High Wycombe saw and copied to his Flt Lt, who copied to his Sqn Ldr, who copied to his Wg Cdr, who copied it to OC BSW at Cottesmore, who demanded that the poster be identified and dealt with.)

FFS, DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS $H!TTY TREATMENT OF YOUR PERSONNEL.

 

[justintime129]

I need a little advice/confirmation

I work in a team that is multi-service (RAF and Army) and there is an upcoming Force Development event to the houses of parliament.

For some reason, the Army gets a raging hard-on about Corps Ties and the WO1 in charge of the section has said everyone must have a corps/RAF branded tie. I protested that I didn't have an RAF tie other than the black on issued and he basically said go an buy one or you will be MAA/AGAI'ed.

First of all, can you be ordered to use your own money (albeit it only a small amount but the concept is the same) to but stuff for duty, and if yes can you have administrative action against you for not complying with the order?

and also, can you be ordered to use your own vehicle for 'duty' transport without getting any money back? So again, we have been told that we must make our own way to the train station for the onward journey to London but there will be no compensation for that travel (Petrol costs/Taxi/Bus). The train to London is funded but the travel to the station isn't.

I know this may all seem menial to some 'stop being a cockwomble and just spend the money' but I didnt think that you could be ordered to be out of pocket for a work related activity.

I am happy to be proven that this is incorrect as long as the JSP/QR/official document states so.

Grym

What's force development and how does it help you in your career. Seems an awful waste of money. Train fares aren't cheap plus the loss of a days work from service personnel.

If you get the chance to meet a MP ask them how feel how about service personnel having to buy their own equipment and paying their own way when on duty.