Interesting pic of the modern RAF

[SausageFingers]

I don't disagree with you but the fact remains that there are plenty of countries in the world, some of them potential adversaries, who don't share the UK's liberal values. Some of those countries will use such images to stir up antagonism against the 'depraved and morally corrupt' UK (not my sentiments but the sort of terminology that can be heard). Gammons may froth and fulminate but they don't throw people off of tower blocks.. .

Valid point, especially considering the places in the world we typically operate in.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Question (again) for someone serving. What the feck are they addressed as when you dont know what they want to be addressed as? Do serving personnel even use sir/ma'am any more due to the potential furore if you get it wrong?

 

[SausageFingers]

Question (again) for someone serving. What the feck are they addressed as when you dont know what they want to be addressed as? Do serving personnel even use sir/ma'am any more due to the potential furore if you get it wrong?

Simple. NCOs as their rank in formal situations. Officers is Sir or Ma'am, but if you're unsure then you could refer to them by title , especially in emails i.e. Flt Lt Bloggs. This is where good judgement is needed. If I came a cross someone who was strikingly obviously a female/male then I'd use the more traditional terms, and would be happy to be corrected. But if I met the individual in the picture, then I'd ask them - it may seem awkward, but once it's done then the ice is broken and normal conversation can resume.

It can seem quite unusual, I know, but asking respectfully is the best way imho. Communication is the key, nobody gets chastised for being respectfully intrigued.

 

[UlsterExile]

I agree with the sentiments. They will have had permissions at the right levels to adjust dress - especially considering it was published on social media. The MCO will have ensured it was above board, and the individual will have spoken to the SWO etc.

The fact is that standards need to evolve , not drop, with the times so that there is a definite line in the sand. Non-binary people (regardless of how difficult it can be to understand their identity) aren't going away. They are in roles and are providing as much operational support as everyone else, and in this enlightened world we need to move with the times to provide a solution that is both clear on standards (we are the military after all!) and also be inclusive across the board.

Ok, I have just shown this to Mrs UE, and the first thing she spotted was shaved legs!!!!!!!!!! But not shaved around the face!!!!!!!! As said I have no issues what they wish to be as long as they can do their job and be smart like every one else (tekkies exempt).

However Mrs UE makes an interesting point, MCO and SWO will have all had their say but will they have been forthcoming?

 

[UlsterExile]

Question (again) for someone serving. What the feck are they addressed as when you dont know what they want to be addressed as? Do serving personnel even use sir/ma'am any more due to the potential furore if you get it wrong?

Pretty sure this has not been addressed yet. Unless someone tells me otherwise, I'll keep going as taught on day one.

 

[UlsterExile]

Looks life a photoshop to me.

Its on Shawbury's twitter feed.

 

[Dan_Brown]

Simple. NCOs as their rank in formal situations. Officers is Sir or Ma'am, but if you're unsure then you could refer to them by title , especially in emails i.e. Flt Lt Bloggs. This is where good judgement is needed. If I came a cross someone who was strikingly obviously a female/male then I'd use the more traditional terms, and would be happy to be corrected. But if I met the individual in the picture, then I'd ask them - it may seem awkward, but once it's done then the ice is broken and normal conversation can resume.

It can seem quite unusual, I know, but asking respectfully is the best way imho. Communication is the key, nobody gets chastised for being respectfully intrigued.

That's ok in that situation where you have time to stop and chat. What about on a Unit and you are passing them by? Usually it's throw one up (oo-er) Morning Sir/Ma'am and you are on your way - so now you have have to stop and have a conversation about how they should be addressed?

Question (again) for someone serving. What the feck are they addressed as when you dont know what they want to be addressed as? Do serving personnel even use sir/ma'am any more due to the potential furore if you get it wrong?

Genuinely no idea in this situation.

 

[80gradeagain]

Time to pack up and go home. Someone turn the lights off on the way out.

 

[Junter]

I thought none of this mattered as long as they could do their job, right?

Or does personal outrage and gammon mouth foaming still play a part?

I find it a bit odd that you defend the rights of some (and rightly imo) but at the same time you find it acceptable to insult others for exercising their rights.

 

[Spearmint]

Question (again) for someone serving. What the feck are they addressed as when you dont know what they want to be addressed as? Do serving personnel even use sir/ma'am any more due to the potential furore if you get it wrong?

I got it wrong once with the (at the time) OC of 202Sqn (RAF Valley) who allegedly transistioned from male to female. I was on guard duty at the entrance to the Orrificers Mess and to be fair, it was dark, I had poor overhead lighting and the horizontal wind/rain was horrendous.

Car pulls up but the window only rolls down a few inches, enough for a hand to hold out a F1250/MOD90 but not enough for me to 100% ID the holder.

The ID Card at the very least had a very male looking face on it, and I could roughly see that the owner was a match. I chuck a salute up and declare, 'Thank you Sir! Have a great evening!'

Car stalls.

Window rolls down and the interior light comes on.

A thunderous face with poor make-up (similar to the crazy old lady that hung about in Elgin's Bus Station in the 90's) looks at me, and in a hoarse voice struggling to sound feminine (probably through hormone treatments)....

'What did you say Airman?'

I quickly glance at my Oppo on the otherside, who has already got the giggles but is stifling it well before quizzically looking back at the offended.

'Erm......thank you.....Ma'am?'

A curt, 'That's better' delivered before the window zips up and the car lurches off towards the Mess Car Park.

 

[Deltaitem]

It's very easy to let an underlying prejudice fool one into judging by appearances. Simply by looking at a picture of three people, who are any of us to say that any one of those three isn't as hard as nails as anyone else, or less than perfectly capable of doing their jobs?
Being all chaps together (supposedly) and dressed traditionally/correctly didn't save the day in Singapore or Crete in '41 against ruthless adversaries. We should be careful what we wish for.
Different times call for different ways of thinking.

 

[Junter]

It's very easy to let an underlying prejudice fool one into judging by appearances. Simply by looking at a picture of three people, who are any of us to say that any one of those three isn't as hard as nails as anyone else, or less than perfectly capable of doing their jobs?
Being all chaps together (supposedly) and dressed traditionally/correctly didn't save the day in Singapore or Crete in '41 against ruthless adversaries. We should be careful what we wish for.
Different times call for different ways of thinking.

I would have thought tactics were the deciding factor rather than a lack of diversity.

 

[SausageFingers]

I would have thought tactics were the deciding factor rather than a lack of diversity.

Tactics in the air or on the battlefield yes. But for the most part, people work in sections where ideas are cultivated, plans are made, solutions are sought - and that is were a diverse group can enable greater perspective which does lead to different and sometimes better solutions to problems. It's business sense, and that's why large organizations are obsessed with it, and a byproduct is that it is morally right.

 

[Junter]

Tactics in the air or on the battlefield yes. But for the most part, people work in sections where ideas are cultivated, plans are made, solutions are sought - and that is were a diverse group can enable greater perspective which does lead to different and sometimes better solutions to problems. It's business sense, and that's why large organizations are obsessed with it, and a byproduct is that it is morally right.

Selecting the best person for the job regardless of background is morally right. Even if that fails to improve your diversity quota.

 

[Deltaitem]

Excluding them because of their diversity is as much of a problem. Old stereotypes die hard, especially in a total institution as hidebound as the military. Lucky for the Macedonians, Romans and Germans that they tolerated Alexander, Hadrian and Peter.

 

[Junter]

Excluding them because of their diversity is as much of a problem. Old stereotypes die hard, especially in a total institution as hidebound as the military. Lucky for the Macedonians, Romans and Germans that they tolerated Alexander, Hadrian and Peter.

I'm pretty sure no-one on this thread
has suggested excluding people because of their diverse background. I wouldn't have thought diversity was too much of a problem in certain parts of the military these days. I do think some people get a bit cheesed off when they are not chosen for a job or post purely because they don't meet the diversity criteria. I think I read somewhere that tribunals have now found that practice discriminatory. Other than that, I would imagine anyone would be treated fairly and equally these days regardless of their background as long as they were up to the job.

 

[Cooheed]

Glad I'm out of this shit show..

 

[Rigga]

His cock prevents his skirt from lying flat like a ‘normal’ one - meaning that the trans-friendly RAF clothing stores doesn’t have a dress trimmed for males yet….

 

[Quagmire]

I'm confused.

Can't believe people are being so picky, I've done worse.

 

[Oldstacker]

His cock prevents his skirt from lying flat like a ‘normal’ one - meaning that the trans-friendly RAF clothing stores doesn’t have a dress trimmed for males yet….

Incorrect... you meant " Her cock..."