- 6,801
- 434
- 82
Some interesting comments on another thread regarding this so would a Direct Entrant Scheme for FS and WO be workable?
-
Welcome to the E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial RAF Rumour Network.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
Direct Entrant FS and WO? Would it work?
- Thread starter Talk Wrench
- Start date
It would be massively dependant on the profession, would you have an ex Tesco manager with a degree in leadership & management signing off reds and greens for aircraft? (I understand a lot more would go into it, requiring maybe engineering/worthiness backgrounds etc)
I'd like to think not. But in other professions, maybe? But I'm sure each profession would argue its case on why it would/wouldn't be ideal.
As for respect, would they be given the same respect a normal FS or WO would recieve who has been through the ranks and done the dets etc. I'm honestly not sure they would.
I'd like to think not. But in other professions, maybe? But I'm sure each profession would argue its case on why it would/wouldn't be ideal.
As for respect, would they be given the same respect a normal FS or WO would recieve who has been through the ranks and done the dets etc. I'm honestly not sure they would.
- 4,051
- 412
- 83
A big NO from me.
The Flight Sergeant and Warrant Office aren't just about trade knowledge and responsibilities, you can employ more junior officers for that side of things.
You also have the discipline, ceremonial and real military life experiences to take into account.
The Flight Sergeant and Warrant Office aren't just about trade knowledge and responsibilities, you can employ more junior officers for that side of things.
You also have the discipline, ceremonial and real military life experiences to take into account.
- 3,455
- 268
- 83
I worked in Tescos before I joined up and their managers were some of the biggest bellends going with zero leadership skills.
A just enough, just in time mindset for an area of engineering which requires a firm understanding of risk, accountability and of course those important safety delegations?
Nope.
It's bad enough when I'm 'bollocking' time served OF3's for screwing up my engineering baseline configurations let alone someone who has just jumped across from 'Junior Waste Compactor Manager'.
- 6,801
- 434
- 82
- 9,312
- 721
- 113
My comment cut and paste (IT stuff I can actually do) from the other thread
Neither for or against the concept but..How would the idea of a FS or similar coming in to the position sideways sit with those who aspire to achieve the position by the normal route of service promotion on merit? Would the promotion tube be blocked off or just slowed down? If it's perceived as a promotion stopper then perhaps unintentionally it would encourage even more to pull the handle as the chance of climbing the greasy pole were now reduced. If we need 20 FS and 10 come from outside then only 10 slots remain for promotion where once there were 20 available.
Neither for or against the concept but..How would the idea of a FS or similar coming in to the position sideways sit with those who aspire to achieve the position by the normal route of service promotion on merit? Would the promotion tube be blocked off or just slowed down? If it's perceived as a promotion stopper then perhaps unintentionally it would encourage even more to pull the handle as the chance of climbing the greasy pole were now reduced. If we need 20 FS and 10 come from outside then only 10 slots remain for promotion where once there were 20 available.
norfolkred1
Sergeant
- 889
- 53
- 28
All because you have a degree in something does not make you a good officer/WO/SNCO. You need time, people experience and above be willing to learn from others be it junior or senior to you. I've witnessed a SNCO belittle a Junior Regt Officer in a classroom and it wasn't nice to watch.
Captain Kirk
Corporal
- 258
- 78
- 28
It’s no different to the Commissioned you get nowadays.
Last edited:
Wobbly_Jon
Corporal
- 351
- 32
- 28
It would depend on which trade, probably fine for admin, stackers, medics etc but not for aircraft related technical trades.
To be honest do you think a civie already employed in propsed trade would give up their give up the nice cushy job, own home freedom etc to be fnuked about by some spaff junior orifice, dumped in fairly basic accomodation and getting stiffed for guard commander/orderly dog duties. I think not although there are some 'strange' people around.
I've worked with and for some dircet entry graduates in my civie job and to be frank most were oxygen thieves when it came to hands on work and even worse if things started to go tit's upwardsthey couldn't perform when under pressure.
Then there is a major factor in play with this idea though especially if its the brain child of some Airship and the next promotion/medal/knighthood depends on it, then it will certainly happen no matter what.
A hopefully happy and peaceful new year to all
To be honest do you think a civie already employed in propsed trade would give up their give up the nice cushy job, own home freedom etc to be fnuked about by some spaff junior orifice, dumped in fairly basic accomodation and getting stiffed for guard commander/orderly dog duties. I think not although there are some 'strange' people around.
I've worked with and for some dircet entry graduates in my civie job and to be frank most were oxygen thieves when it came to hands on work and even worse if things started to go tit's upwardsthey couldn't perform when under pressure.
Then there is a major factor in play with this idea though especially if its the brain child of some Airship and the next promotion/medal/knighthood depends on it, then it will certainly happen no matter what.
A hopefully happy and peaceful new year to all
GD on Wheels
Sergeant
- 912
- 27
- 28
There was enough resentment when a medically downgraded Rgt FS moved across into my trade. And there were more like him. Yes I know it was only MT but it stopped Sgt's going up the ladder and then permeating further down the ranks. I can't see it being welcomed by any trade.
The other idea that was being bandied around revolved around leaving at one rank, lets say Cpl.....and rejoining as a higher rank (CT/FS/WO?) a number of years later after evidencing some form of success in civvy industry....
- 1,484
- 7
- 38
I'm not sure how successful it would be in attracting people who have already been out a few years, to rejoin.
I've had 11 years out and not sure I'd give up the various freedoms I have gained since leaving, just to put a blue suit back on.
Also, not sure that I'd be comfortable trying to slot back into an organisation and lead people that had been a part of that organisation for years, whilst I just saunter back in.
HTB
I've had 11 years out and not sure I'd give up the various freedoms I have gained since leaving, just to put a blue suit back on.
Also, not sure that I'd be comfortable trying to slot back into an organisation and lead people that had been a part of that organisation for years, whilst I just saunter back in.
HTB
- 9,312
- 721
- 113
- 1,484
- 7
- 38
No need for a local Greggs, they do frozen ones that I can take with me and cook fresh... the modern world is amazing!You'd also need a posting near a Greggs.
Welcome back to the Goat HTB
ATB from HTB!
the_worrier
LAC
- 40
- 3
- 8
@norfolkred1, Medical/Dental officers are an interesting case. They are rapidly promoted way beyond their Military experience iot be able to pay them enough to retain them. OF4 & 5 are ten-a-penny but a lot (most) are clueless Re/ anything but med/dent business.
@Harry B'Stard & Downsizer, it is already possible to ask for uplift in rank on re-joining.
@Harry B'Stard & Downsizer, it is already possible to ask for uplift in rank on re-joining.
- 2,215
- 432
- 83
Been giving this some thought over the past couple of days. FWIW, these are my thoughts on the subject.
The RAF is a military service and it is a fundamental principle of the military that personnel are armed forces personnel first and tradesmen second. All personnel may be required to deploy and operate anywhere in the world, to work undefined hours and to serve and operate in potentially dangerous and life-threatening circumstances - yes, even including outside the relative safety of places such as Camp Bastion. In order to do that effectively, personnel (especially junior personnel) should know and have confidence that those who are leading them in those places have the right skills and experience to do so. Experience gained by having had years of training and previous prior involvement in such activities. The junior personnel are entitled to have that confidence and by following that leadership the junior personnel will better survive the experience and perform more effectively in their own roles. They are also entitled to see that their own experiences and developed skills will, in time, allow them to rise up the ranks and earn the respect and regard of the future junior personnel.
Many of the skills required of military life cannot be taught by anything other than lived experience; being a Tesco logistics filling station manager doesn't teach you to operate, for example, a forward helicopter refuelling point out in the bondu as TG18 may have to do.
If you allow DE at SNCO & above levels (parking our commissioned brethren to one side for the moment) then you potentially have managers with no military skills instead of leaders, and you are, in effect, saying to personnel "the hardships you experience at junior ranks will not be considered useful skills and allow you to progress upwards". If that is the case why would anyone want to endure those hardships? Why would anyone feel that their current junior role is worthwhile if it doesn't equip them for higher ranks?
What you end up with is DE SNCO managers ill-equipped and possibly unwilling or unable to deploy to the hot & s****y places and perform the fundamental roles of a military service. Junior personnel who see no value in the s****y jobs (and even in the UK home base some aspects of service life can be pretty s****y at times) and have no incentive to endure and learn from either the experiences or their managers to progress through a full service career where better, more senior, roles can be denied them through external recruitment of less experienced personnel.
If the idea of recruiting DE SNCOs comes about about because of a lack of retention of suitably skilled personnel to promote, then the Airships (and, lets be honest, the politicians) need to take a long hard look at the reasons for that failure of the existing (and recent past) leadership and address that first. The DE route may be required in some trades as a short term emergency measure to fill limited roles but their T's & C's should reflect their lack of military experience and unsuitably for full operational roles - no X factor, for example, and priority for promotion should always be given to 'full service' personnel.
Old fart rant finished....
The RAF is a military service and it is a fundamental principle of the military that personnel are armed forces personnel first and tradesmen second. All personnel may be required to deploy and operate anywhere in the world, to work undefined hours and to serve and operate in potentially dangerous and life-threatening circumstances - yes, even including outside the relative safety of places such as Camp Bastion. In order to do that effectively, personnel (especially junior personnel) should know and have confidence that those who are leading them in those places have the right skills and experience to do so. Experience gained by having had years of training and previous prior involvement in such activities. The junior personnel are entitled to have that confidence and by following that leadership the junior personnel will better survive the experience and perform more effectively in their own roles. They are also entitled to see that their own experiences and developed skills will, in time, allow them to rise up the ranks and earn the respect and regard of the future junior personnel.
Many of the skills required of military life cannot be taught by anything other than lived experience; being a Tesco logistics filling station manager doesn't teach you to operate, for example, a forward helicopter refuelling point out in the bondu as TG18 may have to do.
If you allow DE at SNCO & above levels (parking our commissioned brethren to one side for the moment) then you potentially have managers with no military skills instead of leaders, and you are, in effect, saying to personnel "the hardships you experience at junior ranks will not be considered useful skills and allow you to progress upwards". If that is the case why would anyone want to endure those hardships? Why would anyone feel that their current junior role is worthwhile if it doesn't equip them for higher ranks?
What you end up with is DE SNCO managers ill-equipped and possibly unwilling or unable to deploy to the hot & s****y places and perform the fundamental roles of a military service. Junior personnel who see no value in the s****y jobs (and even in the UK home base some aspects of service life can be pretty s****y at times) and have no incentive to endure and learn from either the experiences or their managers to progress through a full service career where better, more senior, roles can be denied them through external recruitment of less experienced personnel.
If the idea of recruiting DE SNCOs comes about about because of a lack of retention of suitably skilled personnel to promote, then the Airships (and, lets be honest, the politicians) need to take a long hard look at the reasons for that failure of the existing (and recent past) leadership and address that first. The DE route may be required in some trades as a short term emergency measure to fill limited roles but their T's & C's should reflect their lack of military experience and unsuitably for full operational roles - no X factor, for example, and priority for promotion should always be given to 'full service' personnel.
Old fart rant finished....
Dan_Brown
Sergeant
- 940
- 132
- 43
Civvy police did/do a DE to inspector rank. There was a RAF Reg Wg Cdr got offered a post allegedly. Don't know if it was seen as a success or not.
- 2,215
- 432
- 83
I had heard that there was some DE entry to the police, but there has been criticism (may be unconnected) of the way the police are being managed at the moment and the way efforts seem to be being focused.
But I would suggest that the RAF has DE entry to higher ranks already in our commissioned brethren. There is a role for DE at some levels but there has to be some analysis of the roles in which DEs are employed and a recognition that leadership comes from experience and that DEs tend to be managers rather than leaders. At least with the current split point where the 'senior' DE cadre (Plt Off/Fg Off) come in there is widespread recognition that they are 'taken under the wing' of their SNCOs & WOs and by the time they become leaders (Sqn Ldr+) they will have accrued the experience as JOs to become so. I would also argue that the roles of junior commissioned officers and WOs & SNCOs are very different and it is not expected that there is a linear progression from JNCO through SNCO and WO to commissioning.