The Aircraft Engineering Training Machine

[Talk Wrench]

Following on from comments on another thread, is the RAF Aircraft engineering training system fit for purpose or is it need of an overhaul?

Does it need modernising or is the current set up just right for preparing the next generation of techies?

 

[Spearmint]

Does the current syllabus (Avionics - Phase 1) cover Data Network theory including Fibre Optics? Analogue to Digital convertors? Solid State Circuits? Etc.

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

There is no phase 1 Avionics training. The SAC(T) course however does include all you speak of however mainly on synthetic trainers. Unfortunately the students seem to disengage from these in comparison to the actual equipment; in the current set up Jag GR3.

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[Barch]

How many years behind is the training compared to in service jets?

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

The synthetic training is actually quite up to date. Or was when I left two years ago

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[vim_fuego]

Do courses still do the hacking and bashing? If so is this still a relevant activity? Are people ever called upon to do any of that on a carbon fibre jet? Are RAF groundcrew ever going to do 3rd line level recs anymore?

 

[Omerta]

Following on from comments on another thread, is the RAF Aircraft engineering training system fit for purpose or is it need of an overhaul?

Does it need modernising or is the current set up just right for preparing the next generation of techies?

I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't go back to DE/SAC(T) style training rather than the mech tech/AMM we have today.

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

I'm surprised they haven't gone that route already either too. The current system merely adds a further two years lag to the system when we are looking at trying to replace experienced techies.



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[propersplitbrainme]

The vibes I get from the service lads who come here as instructors is that it need modernising, on the mechanical side at least. The RAF needs to ask itself one big question..

What do we need our technicians to be able to know/do to operate effectively on today's aircraft?

Its called a TNA (Training Needs Analysis); one was supposed to have been done prior to 2007 when the current AMM/FT scheme was in the planning stages but it wasn't.

Secondly it needs to ask itself....

Who is best placed to write the course once we know whats needed?

The answer to this has invariably been 'the current instructor cadre' which IMHO is where it all really goes horribly wrong. The current instructor cadre knows how to deliver the stuff it currently has using the kit it has at its disposal that's certainly true, but what its utterly rubbish at (again on the mechanical side) is recognizing and accepting when material has become obsolete and knowing what new technology to include. You really wouldn't believe some of the tears and tantrums when the removal of someones sacred cow gets mooted! The result is that each iteration of a course simply becomes a re-hash of the previous iteration which was in turn an iteration of the one before that which was in turn....you get the idea. Same images (some still had Buccaneers and Phantoms in for crying out loud), same manuals, same lame PowerPoint with yellow on blue text...yawn.

It needs a fresh look with fresh eyes and if those fresh eyes who say we no longer need to teach skin metal repair or hydromechanical fuel control then so-be-it, get rid. If we need to introduce new technologies to meet current aircraft specs then so be it, even if it means increased use of simulators. If it means introducing new teaching tools and technologies, so be it. If the instructors don't like it - there's the door. Sentimentality can no longer play a part.

 

[Vendee]

It needs a fresh look with fresh eyes and if those fresh eyes who say we no longer need to teach skin metal repair or hydromechanical fuel control then so-be-it, get rid. If we need to introduce new technologies to meet current aircraft specs then so be it, even if it means increased use of simulators. If it means introducing new teaching tools and technologies, so be it. If the instructors don't like it - there's the door. Sentimentality can no longer play a part.

I agree broadly with what you say but it will be quite a while before we need to stop teaching skin and structural repair.

 

[Barch]

I agree broadly with what you say but it will be quite a while before we need to stop teaching skin and structural repair.

There is no reason why Metal Repairs can't be a post graduate Q course just like the Aircraft Type courses or the Spray Mat repair course (Lucas Aerospace at Luton Airport) or the Wheels Tyres and Brakes course (Fort Dunlop in Birmingham).

 

[Vendee]

There is no reason why Metal Repairs can't be a post graduate Q course just like the Aircraft Type courses or the Spray Mat repair course (Lucas Aerospace at Luton Airport) or the Wheels Tyres and Brakes course (Fort Dunlop in Birmingham).

Or take it a step further and make it a specialised trade in its own right? Its pretty much that way now with RAF repair teams and RN MASU.

 

[propersplitbrainme]

There is no reason why Metal Repairs can't be a post graduate Q course just like the Aircraft Type courses or the Spray Mat repair course (Lucas Aerospace at Luton Airport) or the Wheels Tyres and Brakes course (Fort Dunlop in Birmingham).

Quite so. In the next rewrite of our current course both Propellers and Helicopters are going to be increased in size but switched from modules everyone does, to bolt-ons at the end of the course that a trainee does depending on where he/she gets posted to - ahem Helicopter Appreciation Course at Shawbury anyone? Whether someone who later gets posted from, say, fast jets to Hercs has to come to Cosford and do the Propellers module remains to be seen. Perhaps techies will be streamed on initial posting and stay with that for their careers; the change to technician career structure alluded to in the reports on the SDSR. There's no reason why metal repair couldn't go the same way although I'd stop short at making it a specialist trade in its own right.

Something else that's holding training back is the paradox that, whilst Cosford is supposed to be the start of a mechanical technicians trade, it is still pretty much organised into 'the rigger bit' and 'the sooty bit'. When it was once suggested that fuel systems was simply a fluid based system that could live alongside hydraulics in terms of where it was delivered and who delivered it, Emily Pankhurst would have been proud of the way people nigh on chained themselves to their desks rather than move in with 'the other trade' (dun, dun duuuuuunnnnn, omg etc). That's got to change as well if staff aren't to render themselves irrelevant in the increasingly cash strapped MOD.

 

[Gord]

Do courses still do the hacking and bashing? If so is this still a relevant activity? Are people ever called upon to do any of that on a carbon fibre jet? Are RAF groundcrew ever going to do 3rd line level recs anymore?

Carbon fibre construction is great until it receives an impact which will immediately, if it's a hard enough impact, cause damage that looks a bit like the ripples you get when you throw a stone into a pond. If it is a puncture type impact then it obviously needs to be repaired immediately or if small enough so it does not pose a danger to the surrounding structure, covered with speed tape until such time as the aircraft or the component can be moved to a repair area, or it could potentially suffer water ingress which will delaminate the structure over time.

A tap test is usually carried out to determine how far the damage extends and will be noticeable by a bit of a hollow sound when compared to structurally sound areas.

The repair procedure is similar for both types of repair, the damaged area has to be removed and a repair carried out using the same number of plies of carbon fibre materials as the original skin plus one more overlap ply, ensuring that the repair plies are directionally the same as the original plies. The direction in which the plies were installed can be found in the appropriate maintenance manual. I have carried out numerous repairs to carbon fibre panels as well as fibre glass and kevlar. The nice thing about composite repairs is that despite the preparation that is involved, once the repair is layed up, vaccum bagged down and the hot bonding equipment set up you can sit on your arse for the next couple of hours as the whole process is time critical and this time is determined by the hot bond machine and the repair menu stipulated in the maintenance manual. It also means that you cannot be dragged away to do some other sh!tty job as the bonding process must be monitored at all time in case something goes wrong such as the repair area springs a vacuum leak or the heat parameters go overboard either up or down so grab yourself a cup of coffee and a good book as generally speaking a warning buzzer will sound if anything goes haywire then you will be required to sort out the problem. YESTERDAY. Seriously, the cup of coffee is fine after the repair is vacuum bagged down but not before as cleanliness is paramount and I always monitored the gauges on the machine and the vacuum seal to ensure that no potential problems occurred.

 

[timaloy]

It could be similar to the french foreign legion, every posting they have they have to go back through aubagne (their main training base) to catch up on courses or whatever they need for their next posting. So any techie could go back through there to pick up any sort of q course for whatever job they are going to be posted onto. Massive pain in the cheeks for the person posted though

 

[Gord]

Quite so. In the next rewrite of our current course both Propellers and Helicopters are going to be increased in size but switched from modules everyone does, to bolt-ons at the end of the course that a trainee does depending on where he/she gets posted to - ahem Helicopter Appreciation Course at Shawbury anyone? Whether someone who later gets posted from, say, fast jets to Hercs has to come to Cosford and do the Propellers module remains to be seen. Perhaps techies will be streamed on initial posting and stay with that for their careers; the change to technician career structure alluded to in the reports on the SDSR. There's no reason why metal repair couldn't go the same way although I'd stop short at making it a specialist trade in its own right.

Something else that's holding training back is the paradox that, whilst Cosford is supposed to be the start of a mechanical technicians trade, it is still pretty much organised into 'the rigger bit' and 'the sooty bit'. When it was once suggested that fuel systems was simply a fluid based system that could live alongside hydraulics in terms of where it was delivered and who delivered it, Emily Pankhurst would have been proud of the way people nigh on chained themselves to their desks rather than move in with 'the other trade' (dun, dun duuuuuunnnnn, omg etc). That's got to change as well if staff aren't to render themselves irrelevant in the increasingly cash strapped MOD.

Airframes which used to incorporate hydraulics, pneumatics, plastics, wheels tyres and brakes and a host of other ancillary trades was always a specuialised trade when I was in. In civvy street I believe it still is although I believe now they only specialise in sheet metal and composite repairs which includes repairs to stringers and frames, aalthough they still do the forming and repairs to hydraulic and pneumatic lines if required, at least that's the way it is here in Canada and what I've been doing half my working life.

 

[Tin basher]

Do courses still do the hacking and bashing? YES If so is this still a relevant activity? When was filing a steel block square ever relevant Are people ever called upon to do any of that on a carbon fibre jet? If you have the relevant Q then Yes Are RAF groundcrew ever going to do 3rd line level recs anymore? unlikely

RAF Bods doing third line stuff is very limited these days

You really wouldn't believe some of the tears and tantrums when the removal of someones sacred cow gets mooted!It needs a fresh look with fresh eyes and if those fresh eyes who say we no longer need to teach skin metal repair get rid. Sentimentality can no longer play a part.

Please wait 18 months to apply the bolt gunDT_Xtremez_42:

I agree broadly with what you say but it will be quite a while before we need to stop teaching skin and structural repair.

Roughly 18 months by my calculationsDT_Xtremez_42:

Did I mention I have 18 pay chits to goDT_Xtremez_15:

 

[Rigga]

FYI Metal Bashing is a somewhat specialist trade in civvy street and I knew some rather competent phillipinos who did it in UK as one company couldn't find UK bods (cheap enough) to do it.
At my last company there were two good UK metal bashers who each worked in specialist roles: one ( a true civvy) was fabricating marvellous things from drawings and the other (ex-RN) doing repairs. I used to do both those jobs on 431MU.

 

[Joe_90]

What about Station Workshops? Should they be the ones updating their skills to work with carbon fibre etc? They actually exist to make and repair aircraft parts not make gizzits in the Falklands.

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[Gord]

What about Station Workshops? Should they be the ones updating their skills to work with carbon fibre etc? They actually exist to make and repair aircraft parts not make gizzits in the Falklands.

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If you can do a fibreglass repair you can probably do a carbon fibre repair, the process is similar, with having to taper sand the repair area to ensure that you get down to the bottom of the damage and give sufficient original material showing on each of the plies so that the new plies you install adhere to the original material, following the direction of the original plies, after which it is simply a case of choosing the correct menu on the hot bond machine and following the lay up instructions with regard to the vacuum and temp of the repair for the time specified all this info can be gleaned from either the SRM or the AMM. Of course one should have some training to ensure that what you read in the manual is what you do in practice.

As I said before, cleanliness is imperative and taper sanding is not always easy as it is possible to sand through two or more layers of material thinking it is only one layer. Some carbon fibre skins may have as many as nine or more plies, each of them offset from the previous and following one by a specified number of degrees and new plies must be installed in the same direction as the one it is replacing to provide original strength to the repair area.

Lots of fun.