NEM - A Personal View

[muttywhitedog]

Wow, there is so much bitterness flying around this thread that it's really quite pathetic.

Those who served and have left in the last 5 years, really should just keep their heads down. You guys left with the last strands of decent terms.

Ive lost 25% of my pension overnight from the introduction of AFPS15. If you haven't lost that much of your military pension, I'd suggest you keep your opinion to yourselves, cause your really don't understand the problem.

The new pay scale, although ****e, I can sort of live with. I get it. Putting a few trades who were in the old HIGH band, back where they belong was well overdue. I refrain from naming, but we all know which ones I'm talking about.

Ive lost out on the new pay scales, so am not gloating here.

As for the rest of the shafting we've been getting, there's too much to mention.

Can all you CS guys, please tell me, what has your DWRs increased to ?
Ours have gone to 6 months away from family and friends with no RnR.
If you add on the multitude of PET some of us need to do, prior to ANY DWR, then that can grow to 8-9 months effectively away from family and friends.
Im assuming all you CS, Police, Prison Service, NHS, all have the same commitment ??? NO....didn't think so!!!

Am I right in thinking, that overtime is available in the vast majority of other public service departments ??

Am I right in thinking that Flexi-Time, is quite prevelant in the CS ??

Please do me a favour, and stop trying to compare military life with ANY OTHER type of public service jobs.
It just embarrassing to rip apart any comparison you can make.

Enjoy your pension, and your new 'cushy' CS job. Let's face it, most CS get paid peanuts for a reason, cause in my experience, and I have a lot, they are bloody useless. That's my opinion by the way, so technically it can't be wrong.....just saying like.

None of you, including me, have ever been part of such an Armed Forces that is on its knees.
We are too small now to absorb the impact of 'low morale, pay issues, allowance issues, housing issues, pension reform, manning issues, trade & branch critical manning issues, DWR issues' the list goes on. There's something for everyone in that list, which seriously questions their role in the RAF.

People are voting with their feet. Everyday, more and more PVR, more and more leave at their earliest exit point.
So don't think it's all just white-noise whinging, it's not.

Well done NEM....If retention & selection was your goal.....you've smashed it out of the park.

No bitterness, just my point of view which is outside the bubble that many of the military live their life in, often protected from what is going on outside. At least with AFPS 75/15 we were given a choice of which to take - when NEM was imposed on you, then you know its going to be a sh!t sandwich, and that is why I decided to cash in my chips and take my chances outside. Thus far, the only thing I miss is the unpredictability that life in the RAF gave me, where I went into work never knowing what I would actually do that day.

Turning to your attack on the CS (as to why, I'm not sure, because they were only brought into the debate to remind you that the military are only going through what the CS did 3-4 years ago), I'll address some of your concerns from my particular area of the CS, which is not the MOD CS:

Many people work away from home, particularly those who are private sector corporate whores, desperate to earn more money and climb the ladder. I'm a qualified LGV driver, and am often offered work "tramping", which is very well paid in the haulage sector. Its not for me though, and I'd rather forego the money and have the time at home. That's why after acquiring a degree and CIPD certification whilst in the RAF, I turned my back on that career path because of the kilo of flesh they wanted in return for a fat salary. In the CS, work away is not that common, but then again, the pay is roughly half of what it is in the RAF.

Overtime has not been authorised in my dept since May. In fact, as a dept that is overseen by arguably the most hard-nosed minister that makes Osborne look soft, its hardly surprising. In fact, our 1% Govt imposed pay rise from July was only paid to us in January because she wanted to personally sign it off, and made a point of delaying and delaying it to p!ss the union off.

Flexitime is available. If you want an early stack on a Friday, you swipe out and make the hours up another time. If you have a Dr/dentist appointment, you swipe out. If you have a funeral to attend, you take a day off. If you want a cigarette, you swipe out. If your flex falls two working days in deficit, then the system takes two days annual leave off you and re-credits your flex with those hours. Basically, you will work your conditioned hours, or will make them up out of your leave. Gash time off doesn't happen.

Tin hat time, but NEM is what the rest of the public sector got a few years ago. But of course a few years ago, soldiers were still coming home in flag-draped coffins, and to hike NI, FQ rent and slash their pensions at that time would have been political suicide. Nowadays, the military is not at the forefront of people's minds, and frankly, most of the country neither know nor care what the 150,000 members of the Armed Forces are up to at the moment, as they are more concerned with an EU referendum, refugees, the junior doctors' dispute and whether the X Factor will return later in the year! Those of us who have served empathise with your frustrations at your perceived harsh treatment, but we are able to look at it from another viewpoint, having made the decision to leave and experience life outside, be it in the private or public sector.

 

[justintime129]

I think it's a shame that the dedication of our still serving, and yet to serve, will not have the balanced package that I received.

they've always been messing with the little extra we received. I remember 4 rail warrants or 4 mileage warrants a year to anywhere you wanted, no proof of journey. Then it changed and you had to register a couple of addresses and could only use these addresses for your warrants. Rates paid without receipts.

I would be livid if they changed my pay, but the lads serving have no recourse and therefore are a soft target. Wasn't one of the big incentives of promotion a hefty pay rise, but looking at the original posters calculation where's the incentive to get promoted.

 

[Ringo]

Okay, how can I put this............

This is an RAF site predominantly dealing with RAF issues.....(mostly).

So it's a bit stupid, to come on here moaning about CS, NHS, Police terms of service.
I personally don't care about those, I care about mine and my colleagues ToS.

I don't need empathy, cause those that matter, can sympathise with me, not empathise.

Everytime one of us blue suits has a whinge on our forum, up pops a CS, NHS to tell us that it's life.

I could understand, if we were making these points on a CS, NHS FORUM....but honestly....I don't care.
Our jobs, roles, purpose couldn't be further apart.
No other public service.....and for the record.....the military are NOT public servants..........do what we do, with virtually no say on changes and certainly no right to reply.

So, keep the CS and NHS out of this, and there won't be anymore comparisons.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Well, that's me and the 60%+ of the goat's membership (and subscribers/donators) who are ex-serving put in their box. If you are representative of what is left, with an attitude like that, I'm glad I left and took my pension when I did.

Enjoy your life in your military-only bubble, and don't forget to make a donation to the goat if you want to keep it going so that you and your ever-decreasing number of serving personnel can discuss issues relevant to you. I'll keep myself to non-RAF issues in future.

 

[Max Reheat]

Max, the official manning figures for January should be out next week then we'll see what has really happened wrt pvrs. It'll be interesting to see if people start getting extension offers not linked to promotion.

Thats already happening, certainly at Sgt A Tech M level.

 

[justintime129]

Okay, how can I put this............ This is an RAF site predominantly dealing with RAF issues.....(mostly). So it's a bit stupid, to come on here moaning about CS, NHS, Police terms of service. I personally don't care about those, I care about mine and my colleagues ToS. I don't need empathy, cause those that matter, can sympathise with me, not empathise. Everytime one of us blue suits has a whinge on our forum, up pops a CS, NHS to tell us that it's life. I could understand, if we were making these points on a CS, NHS FORUM....but honestly....I don't care. Our jobs, roles, purpose couldn't be further apart. No other public service.....and for the record.....the military are NOT public servants..........do what we do, with virtually no say on changes and certainly no right to reply. So, keep the CS and NHS out of this, and there won't be anymore comparisons.

There are people on here with a wealth of experience both inside and outside the mob and are always willing to help, share their experience. Some have even helped in securing work for those leaving. Look at the thread on CV tips for those willing to share their experience of life outside. The majority of us have served and we've seen life inside and outside.

 

[bigtrev952]

Okay, how can I put this............

No other public service.....and for the record.....the military are NOT public servants..........do what we do, with virtually no say on changes and certainly no right to reply.

So, keep the CS and NHS out of this, and there won't be anymore comparisons.

[/There are a wide variety of other public bodies who do not generally employ civil servants (other than on loan from government departments). (The only exceptions (as noted above) are the HSE and ACAS which have not been classified as Government departments but whose employees are nevertheless regarded as civil servants.) The main categories are:-

• Non-Departmental Public Bodies (NDPBs), often known as Quangos.
• The National Health Service
• The Armed Forces
• Public Corporations
• Local Authorities

Oh oh well ! There's your official government designation for you.

and how can I put this ?

i don't give a toss on your opinion either to be fair.

obviously you see yourself as a special case, your not.

ask joe public if he wants a typhoon or a cancer ward there's only one answer.

i don't need telling the difference by someone of your ilk either

i have served ....... Outside the confines of an mob, fob, airfield etc in

iraq, Afghanistan on multiple tours

Saudi Arabia, turkey ( not incirlik )

both gulf wars on the ground in support of armour.

lebanon

northern ireland.

and sailed as a junior airman to the Falklands on the task force.

37 years in all .... And yes there was some change funny enough.


i will always defend our forces and will speak out on equipment and spending in there defence

i do wonder why.


A good saying, and renember this when you read the official list above

dont give documentary evidence to show you don't know what your talking about.

 

[bigtrev952]

There are people on here with a wealth of experience both inside and outside the mob and are always willing to help, share their experience. Some have even helped in securing work for those leaving. Look at the thread on CV tips for those willing to share their experience of life outside. The majority of us have served and we've seen life inside and outside.

Correct helped a few RAF and army folks already this year find houses and employment.

might give this forum a miss for quite a while now though.

 

[metimmee]

Okay, how can I put this............

This is an RAF site predominantly dealing with RAF issues.....(mostly).

So it's a bit stupid, to come on here moaning about CS, NHS, Police terms of service.
I personally don't care about those, I care about mine and my colleagues ToS.

I don't need empathy, cause those that matter, can sympathise with me, not empathise.

Everytime one of us blue suits has a whinge on our forum, up pops a CS, NHS to tell us that it's life.

I could understand, if we were making these points on a CS, NHS FORUM....but honestly....I don't care.
Our jobs, roles, purpose couldn't be further apart.
No other public service.....and for the record.....the military are NOT public servants..........do what we do, with virtually no say on changes and certainly no right to reply.

So, keep the CS and NHS out of this, and there won't be anymore comparisons.

Well..I'm serving, and I'm interested in the opinions of our civilian counterparts. Be nice to civvies..you'll be one, one day.

 

[PerArdonAdPollo]

Well..I'm serving, and I'm interested in the opinions of our civilian counterparts. Be nice to civvies..you'll be one, one day.

Yeah, me too.

Shame that a 'thus and them' attitude has snuck into this thread. Some great posts though, all the same.

I fully realise we're not the worst treated in the world, or in the public sector for that matter. Just frustrating that I'm (along with many others) stuck in a pension trap with no recourse. I'm far too stubborn to leave and give it up!

From the looks of facebook, the housing price hike isn't going to go quite as quietly as some may have hoped. Why? Well the highest ranks in the military have found out and are banding together ... that's right, The Wives! Oh, there's nothing like a woman scorned!

 

[Ringo]

Look at the title of this thread.........

How does what is going on in non-NEM environments relevant ??

This was about how the NEM is affecting serving people and should have remained on topic.

But as usual on this site, all our civvy friends, decide to pipe up with nothing better than 'dry your eyes princess', the very same guys who are happy to claim the same pension we all signed up for, only they got out before the big changes.

Ive nothing against civvies, I have plenty against those who try and rationalise the shafting we are getting or try and trivialise it by somehow trying to compare us to other government agencies.

Maybe this site is too civvy heavy now, and maybe there's a reason for that.

Maybe it's because serving guys come on here to discuss current service issues, but end up getting brow beaten by all the old sweats who had their cake and have quickly forgotten the things that makes what we do, very different to everyone else.

Lastly, I find it offensive to be compared even slightly to any CS...so don't even bother trying to justify our different ToR.

 

[chiprafp]

Let's all remember that this site is actually for serving AND ex serving members of the RAF and everyone is allowed an opinion, you just don't have to agree with it.

If you are unable to debate with people in a sensible and well mannered way don't be surprised when you are put on the naughty step

 

[chiprafp]

Correct helped a few RAF and army folks already this year find houses and employment.

might give this forum a miss for quite a while now though.

That would be disappointing based on a disagreement with one individual but obviously your choice mate.

 

[Cooheed]

Look at the title of this thread.........

How does what is going on in non-NEM environments relevant ??

This was about how the NEM is affecting serving people and should have remained on topic.

But as usual on this site, all our civvy friends, decide to pipe up with nothing better than 'dry your eyes princess', the very same guys who are happy to claim the same pension we all signed up for, only they got out before the big changes.

Ive nothing against civvies, I have plenty against those who try and rationalise the shafting we are getting or try and trivialise it by somehow trying to compare us to other government agencies.

Maybe this site is too civvy heavy now, and maybe there's a reason for that.

Maybe it's because serving guys come on here to discuss current service issues, but end up getting brow beaten by all the old sweats who had their cake and have quickly forgotten the things that makes what we do, very different to everyone else.

Lastly, I find it offensive to be compared even slightly to any CS...so don't even bother trying to justify our different ToR.

For what it's worth mate, I left just under a year ago and old enough to be have the transitional protection for AFPS 75 so left with what I expected. I had to attend numerous 'roadshows' in my last year to hear about what NEM was all about to back brief personnel various. I didn't like what I was hearing and have seen our once great Air Force systematically destroyed pretty much since the cold war ended. I have old notebooks with forecast manning levels being cut and cut since the mid 90's and know how difficult things were when I left watching people having to cover constantly due to shortages and gapping.

Then came NEM and AFPS 15. I really do feel for the folks still in and, on top of overstretch, gapping, multi-tasking etc etc, for having to continually be fed a bigger and bigger sihte sandwich. Doesn't look like the 'pension trap' is as glamourous as it once was.

Good luck to all the peeps that are having to endure this next, and probably terminal, level of Service T's & C's.

 

[Ringo]

For what it's worth mate, I left just under a year ago and old enough to be have the transitional protection for AFPS 75 so left with what I expected. I had to attend numerous 'roadshows' in my last year to hear about what NEM was all about to back brief personnel various. I didn't like what I was hearing and have seen our once great Air Force systematically destroyed pretty much since the cold war ended. I have old notebooks with forecast manning levels being cut and cut since the mid 90's and know how difficult things were when I left watching people having to cover constantly due to shortages and gapping.

Then came NEM and AFPS 15. I really do feel for the folks still in and, on top of overstretch, gapping, multi-tasking etc etc, for having to continually be fed a bigger and bigger sihte sandwich. Doesn't look like the 'pension trap' is as glamourous as it once was.

Good luck to all the peeps that are having to endure this next, and probably terminal, level of Service T's & C's.

Hi mate. Nice summary of what state we are in right now.

Unless someone has experienced the changes going on right now, I don't believe they can understand the magnitude.

Like I said previously, 6 month DWRs, the amount of post gapping going on, sheer numbers of dissolutions staff in all ranks, trades and branches.......its totally unprecedented.

The OP was giving an overview of how NEM is affecting him and his story is one that is mimicked across the force.

And in the midst of all this, I can see no resemblance in comparing our 'lot' with those outside the 'wire' if you like.

 

[Ringo]

Okay, how can I put this............

No other public service.....and for the record.....the military are NOT public servants..........do what we do, with virtually no say on changes and certainly no right to reply.

So, keep the CS and NHS out of this, and there won't be anymore comparisons.

[/There are a wide variety of other public bodies who do not generally employ civil servants (other than on loan from government departments). (The only exceptions (as noted above) are the HSE and ACAS which have not been classified as Government departments but whose employees are nevertheless regarded as civil servants.) The main categories are:-

• Non-Departmental Public Bodies (NDPBs), often known as Quangos.
• The National Health Service
• The Armed Forces
• Public Corporations
• Local Authorities

Oh oh well ! There's your official government designation for you.

and how can I put this ?

i don't give a toss on your opinion either to be fair.

obviously you see yourself as a special case, your not.

ask joe public if he wants a typhoon or a cancer ward there's only one answer.

i don't need telling the difference by someone of your ilk either

i have served ....... Outside the confines of an mob, fob, airfield etc in

iraq, Afghanistan on multiple tours

Saudi Arabia, turkey ( not incirlik )

both gulf wars on the ground in support of armour.

lebanon

northern ireland.

and sailed as a junior airman to the Falklands on the task force.

37 years in all .... And yes there was some change funny enough.


i will always defend our forces and will speak out on equipment and spending in there defence

i do wonder why.


A good saying, and renember this when you read the official list above

dont give documentary evidence to show you don't know what your talking about.

I am certainly NOT a civil servant !!!

http://www.civilservicecommission.org.uk

I like all members of the Forces are Crown Servants.......big difference.

Not sure why the need for the long-winded, rude reply you put together.

 

[unruly1986]

Look at the title of this thread.........

How does what is going on in non-NEM environments relevant ??

This was about how the NEM is affecting serving people and should have remained on topic.

But as usual on this site, all our civvy friends, decide to pipe up with nothing better than 'dry your eyes princess', the very same guys who are happy to claim the same pension we all signed up for, only they got out before the big changes.

Ive nothing against civvies, I have plenty against those who try and rationalise the shafting we are getting or try and trivialise it by somehow trying to compare us to other government agencies.

Maybe this site is too civvy heavy now, and maybe there's a reason for that.

Maybe it's because serving guys come on here to discuss current service issues, but end up getting brow beaten by all the old sweats who had their cake and have quickly forgotten the things that makes what we do, very different to everyone else.

Lastly, I find it offensive to be compared even slightly to any CS...so don't even bother trying to justify our different ToR.

Hear hear.

 

[The Nip]

Pension Trap

Pension Trap

1 Just frustrating that I'm (along with many others) stuck in a pension trap with no recourse. I'm far too stubborn to leave and give it up!

This is no criticism of those who follow this mantra, but why is it a pension trap?

You only have to read the many posts on this website to discover it is possible to earn good money outside the RAF.

Even my poor maths can work out that, for the majority, by earning above your mil wage for the years you have left, you would be in a far better financial situation rather than staying for a few hundred quid extra a year.

My point being that sometimes the more you hear people saying about a pension trap doesn't make it the ideal solution.

 

[Witty_Banter]

I fair point...

I'm one of those people who quotes the 'pension trap' line as my reason for still being in.

For me, the reason it's a trap is that I'd planned to use my payout and '75 element of my pension for a deposit on a house and base mortgage payments, leaving me to spend whatever I can earn post-military-retirement on actually enjoying my life. If I were to pull the lever and eject before my 22 was up, I'd get a much smaller payout (which would likely be taken up by paying rent until I secure a decent job) and I wouldn't see a pension until I'm 65. As I currently don't own any property, this makes getting out sooner a lot more complicated (as I have wife, kids, houseful of furniture and pets but nowhere to immediately put them).

If I'd been a bit more switched on 15 years ago, I'd have got a mortgage when I was 20 and would have almost paid it off by now. But I wasn't, so I can't, so I'm 'trapped'.

 

[busby1971]

Pension trap under AFPS 75 is 25 years of pension payments and a 40 to 50k lump sum, roughly 300k, but you'll pay a bit more tax offset from savings on your mortgage, people tend to feel trapped from about the 15 year point in.