Navy, Army & RAF to be merged

[Stax]

I was reading this comment someone posted on that article and the person thinks that RAF is essentially a waste of money.

......and thats the problem with civvies and/or other Services. They have no real concept of how the other Services work and how we do our business. Everyone automatically thnks that the Army could do ALL our flying stuff, in reality all that could happen is that we would be cut further and rebadged. The whole system would have to remain, including how we but and/or maintain our aircraft.

 

[wolfy]

Well I can't wait for the beancounters to then turn on the Army and reduce their numbers drastically, They wont find it so funny then.

In the Air Force we service maintain and operate our aircraft so the AAC can go and the reme can do the job (apart from the pilots) Post Afghan the army can see what's coming their way and want to sacrifice the RAF and Navy to save themselves but I can't see them retaining their numbers for long...

I agree and if you read between the lines of the SDSR thats exactley what is going to happen. I can think of at least 1/2 Army REME units that are likely to go just because of the dumping of the Harriers.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

That tirade you posted makes me desperately sad.

The oldest independent air force in the world, which has served with distinction around the world since its inception; reduced to a few poisonous words written by some bitter and twisted ex-pongo/fishead or civvy armchair general.

 

[POB]

Do the ARmy REALLY need quite so many MBTs and heavy artillery pieces? Have they lost any?

 

[Tyson]

Now use those figures against aircraft and troops

All wiki, so might be nonsense, and looking at the RAF numbers it is.

USAF
329,638 active personnel
68,872 reserve personnel
94,597 air guard personnel
493,107 in total
5,573 aircraft, of which 2,132 are fighters
450 ICBMs
32 satellites

So 315 * Officers = 17 Aircraft per officer or 1565 men each.

RAF
1002 Aircraft (really!)
42,750 Regulars
2,500 RAF Volunteers
33,380 Regular Reserve (?)
78,630 in total

So 130 * Officers = 7.7 aircraft per officer or 604 men each.

I wonder what they are counting as reserve personnel?

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

lots of spacy officers in that reserve total..

 

[SCAFITE]

Raf aircraft numbers

Raf aircraft numbers

RAF Aircraft numbers of 1002 may well be correct, but I think it includes all kind of puddle Jumpers and Air Cadet Aircraft.

 

[Fedaykin]

......and thats the problem with civvies and/or other Services. They have no real concept of how the other Services work and how we do our business. Everyone automatically thnks that the Army could do ALL our flying stuff, in reality all that could happen is that we would be cut further and rebadged. The whole system would have to remain, including how we but and/or maintain our aircraft.

First commentDT_Xtremez_19:
I would also add that this pongo/fishhead/armchair general is also perpetuating the "RAF has seen no combat since WW2" myth. In respect of air combat the last time an RAF owned aircraft shot down an enemy aircraft was in 1948 when an RAF Spitfire shot down an Egyptian airforce Spitfire.

When we look at combat kills but not in RAF airframes at least 5 RAF pilots on exchange with USAF F-86 units scored air-to-air victories over MIG's in Korea.

Flt.Lt John Nicholls scored 1 and damaged 3 others.
Sqn.Ldr. Max Higson scored 1.
Flt.Lt. RTF Dickenson scored 1.
Flt.Lt. John Granville-White scored 1.
Flt.Lt. Graham Hulse scored 3.

Then when we look at the Falklands war 25% of the SHAR kills over the argies were in aircraft piloted by RAF pilots including David Morgan who also had the highest kill rate (not that the arch bull$hitter Sharkey "I'm a pilot god" Ward would like to admit that).

Finally if we get into the business of dropping ordnance the RAF has been plying its trade dropping bombs in many a conflict up to now!

 

[Knackered Old Chief]

And the Canadian vote is....?

And the Canadian vote is....?

Just to keep the thing turning over - did anyone notice a quiet little piece of news on Ceefax last week? In order to 'uphold and remember the proud traditions of the Canadian fighting services' Canadas Maritime Command is now officially the Royal Canadian Navy, and Air Command is - you guesed it - the Royal Canadian Air Force. Merged in the interests of efficiency in the 1960s, now it is finally recognised that a if Service is to be more than the sum of it's constituent parts, it needs a little more than accountancy rules. I joined the Roayal Air Force, and served in it for 30 years. If I had wanted to be a soldier I would have joined the Army, ditto the RN if I'd wished to be a sailor. To want to remain RAF is not to knock or denigrate the opther two services; competitiveness can gom too far. I am proud to have served in light blue, and if 'merger' is forced upon the RAF by those who know the cost of everything and the value nothing, then have a final disbandment parade of the RAF, lower the ensign for the last time, and don't pretend that any 'Component' of the other two services is a successor to the RAF. We have no land border to speak of; we are surrounded by wet stuff and covered in stuff that aeroplanes fly in. We NEED an Air Force and a Navy - the Army is by way of a bonus if we wish to go and stick our noses in other peoples countries. Trim them back, hive off the Beefeaters and tourist parading to Disney or someone (Virgin Soldiers perhaps?) and put the money where it is needed, not where the loudest whinging comes from. DT_Xtremez_25:Rant off.

 

[Fedaykin]

Ah well they are still a combined service, its a return to the old names only.

 

[Weebl]

Ah well they are still a combined service, its a return to the old names only.

I was under the impression they had pretty much moved apart back into 3 separate services long before the return to the old names.

Funny enough, combining the 3 arms just does not work.

 

[Fedaykin]

On another note found this article on a fishhead lobby site, when I first saw it with the title "Inter service Rivalry" I thought:

ahh hopefully a balanced report about the problems of inter service rivalry exploring how the different services compete with each other. Certainly an examination of how pettyness in all three services can hinder the defence of our nation.

Then I scrolled down and noticed it was written by Sharkey Ward (scourge of the RAF). With that in my mind I start reading...to find it to be one very long RANT about the RAF. Looking pass his well known bias he comes up with some fairly colourful bizarre conclusions in relation to certain events. His whole section about JP233 operations in GW1 do not tally with what I know about those events and I would even say slanderous in respect of his comments about Tonka driver experience levels...here is a bit of that section:

After the runway-cratering bomblets have been fully dispensed from the JP233 pod under the Tornado during an attack run, the pod is automatically ejected from the aircraft. When this occurs at very high speed and low level as in a live attack, the aircraft is subjected to an involuntary and substantial upward force of at least 4g. Having no previous experience, the Tornado pilots who delivered JP233 against Iraqi airfields during the Kuwait crisis were not prepared for this. They also attacked at night. When the pod released, the nose of their aircraft was thrown sharply upwards and they were rapidly disoriented; subsequently losing control of their aircraft. Three Tornado crews ejected as a result of this – some presuming that they had been hit by enemy fire. Had the crews been able to experience the release characteristics of the JP233 in practice and by day, they should have survived and returned to base with their expensive aircraft.

Anyhow here is a link:

http://www.phoenixthinktank.org/?p=287

 

[Weebl]

On another note found this article on a fishhead lobby site, when I first saw it with the title "Inter service Rivalry" I thought:

ahh hopefully a balanced report about the problems of inter service rivalry exploring how the different services compete with each other. Certainly an examination of how pettyness in all three services can hinder the defence of our nation.

Then I scrolled down and noticed it was written by Sharkey Ward (scourge of the RAF). With that in my mind I start reading...to find it to be one very long RANT about the RAF. Looking pass his well known bias he comes up with some fairly colourful bizarre conclusions in relation to certain events. His whole section about JP233 operations in GW1 do not tally with what I know about those events and I would even say slanderous in respect of his comments about Tonka driver experience levels...here is a bit of that section:



Anyhow here is a link:

http://www.phoenixthinktank.org/?p=287

The well known facts regarding the situations surrounding RAF Tornado losses during Granby show this to be a lie to anybody who can read or use Google.

We did not lose 3 Tornado in total while they were in the middle (or at the end) of a JP233 run, so that puts paid to that theory quite nicely.

Sharky Ward is an idiot who has let personal biases ruin his reputation, at least in the eyes of those who actually know anything about the Military, I for one once respected him following Op Corporate, now I think of him as an old fool at best, a lying vindictive pillock at worst.

What I did find Slanderous was a quick check on my facts on a few websites shows Wikipedia stating that Sqn Ldr Lennox and Weeks were lost due to 'Pilot Error' causing them to hit the ground. I would like to know where they got this information from, because personally, I think whoever posted it, made it up. Tw@ts.

 

[John Lloyd]

What a load of old tripe, having read through the so called 'Paper' all I can say is, Someone's education has been sorely wasted.

It is a chilling fact that during the Cold War period of the eighties, when Britain was susceptible to massive air attack from regiments of Soviet Badgers and Blinders , the Royal Air Force did not have a capable All Weather Fighter/Interceptor with a working BVR Weapon System to counter this air threat. Britain was devoid of effective land-based air defence and the government and the public was deliberately kept ignorant of this perilous situation.

Suppose I wasted all that time on Phantom and Tornado QRA then, along with everyone else on the squadrons.

There has been a serious lack of any effective Air Defence of the UK Mainland Base from 1979.

Don't remember any change in 1979 other than the Phantoms from the Ark being passed to Leuchars.

The F3 is a fighter that has no role capability in Afghanistan

Give the man a coconut.

I hope these people have no influence on anything.

 

[rigpig]

Isnt it easy to hate something you have no understanding of!!!!!!

Until you take the time to understand a concept then you will always be ignorant!

For example I have no idea why we have Tanks any more?

Most platforms can carry an array of tin opening ordanance which would make any heavy armour (HA) attack pointless, and as for quick reactionarry assests dont make me laugh 6-10 weeks to sail half way around the world. If you have a coast anywere close.

So I sugest we scrap all HA and invest in UAVs with tin oppening ordanance strapped on.

I bet HA lifer would think differntly but Im Air force there for am ignorant of big heavy army stuff!!

Discuss!!!!

 

[Tashy_Man]

but Im Air force there for am ignorant of big heavy army stuff!!

Discuss!!!!

I can see where you are coming from and to a point i can agree....the only problem I forsee is the fact that we no longer have a viable Air Force with the required capability to carry out the tasks........any turn around to rectify this situation will take years.

So basically we are stuffed either way....discuss....

Crack on................DT_Xtremez_09:

 

[John Lloyd]

I can see where you are coming from and to a point i can agree....the only problem I forsee is the fact that we no longer have a viable Air Force with the required capability to carry out the tasks........any turn around to rectify this situation will take years.

So basically we are stuffed either way....discuss....

Crack on................DT_Xtremez_09:

Until we are threatened by a European bogey man. (Napoleon, Kaiser Bill, Adolf or Joe Stalin). Then the armed forces will be sliced and diced progressively until we have a minuscule core of capability. Always has been in history and will continue to be so in the future.

'There is no viable enemy to be forseen in the next 10 years'. That crystal ball is a godsend.

 

[foxvc10]

Gary Lennox and Kev Weeks took an SA14 whilst lofting 1000lb's on Ar Rutbah (spelliing?) radar site

A long night waiting.

 

[Joe_90]

I'm afraid I've only managed to get half way through before my eyes started to bleed. He seems to denigrate everyone for twisting facts to suit themselves and then twists as many facts as he can find to suit his own argument. He really is a petty old man who needs to find something useful to do with his time.

 

[Fedaykin]

An entire article by a bitter twisted man (he got less kills during the Falklands then the top scoring RAF pilot - an RAF pilot who didn't have all the air to air combat skills that Sharkey apparently had and lets not forget only one of Sharkeys kills was actually Argentine fast air the other two being a Pucara and C130) that despite being called "Interservice Rivalry" failed to examine that subject in any way or form and should of been called "How much I hate the RAF".

Interservice rivalry is a serious subject worth examination and the fact is all services are guilty of it.

There was a fascinating program on Radio 4 recently about logistics with the UK military, we have a crazy and expensive situation of each service operating multiple obsolete logistics systems. An area which is ripe for streamlining and bringing together under one roof yet lack of interest by the high ups and interservice rivalry hampers that goal. One thing which made me laugh was when a high up from one of the services said military stock handling wasn't like the high street...I was thinking hang on a company like Ikea or Tesco knows exactly where its stock is on a global scale, their systems are modern and its off the shelf technology...haven't the MOD got something to learn from them?

I have a friend who works for a marine contractor, once the Navy/MOD phoned them to ask when they had purchased a warehouse full of outboard engines they had just found!:raf:

I have a hunch there are many similar stories from the Army and RAF!