• Welcome to the E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial RAF Rumour Network.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Met Police Again ...

D

DymondDude

Guest
DD, try taking your blinkers off for 5 mins and using your brain.
******

Precisely how is an unarmed man with his hands in his pockets in anyway a threat to a cop with a nightstick, mace and a riot helmet backed up by many other such cavemen with bad attitudes towards the public and dogs trained to kill?
 

Dave-exfairy

Warrant Officer
2,869
0
0
Precisely how is an unarmed man with his hands in his pockets in anyway a threat to a cop with a nightstick, mace and a riot helmet backed up by many other such cavemen with bad attitudes towards the public and dogs trained to kill?

How do YOU know he's unarmed? Many a copper has been surprised by someone with their hands in his pockets.
The man is clearly not moving when asked to by the officers, he is clearly dragging his heels.
The trick is, for yourself, is not to believe everything you see/read in the media and to read the words of those with more experience, such as Vushtrri and myself.
Good job bobbies don't always have bad opinions of members of the Armed Forces. The Police are damned if they do and damned if they don't, policing today is a hard job and the police don't always get the thanks they deserve, maybe you could find that out for yourself if you have the courage?
 

chiprafp

Geek Scuffer
7,683
60
48
Dont worry Dave, Dymond Dude clearly talks from experience of dealing with unknown Males with hands in pockets, Hes also Phsychic and has x-ray vision, but then again the poisinous sh1te in his post doesnt betray his feelings towards the police at all does it :)
 
Last edited:

Weebl

Flight Sergeant
1,895
0
0
How do YOU know he's unarmed? Many a copper has been surprised by someone with their hands in his pockets.
The man is clearly not moving when asked to by the officers, he is clearly dragging his heels.

Does this give any member of the public or any Police officer the right to baton strike him or shoulder charge him?

The vast majority of us like to think the Police are on our side, seeing things like this does nothing to help that, and seeing serving coppers making excuses for it really does not help.

If I was to shove somebody out of my way because they were dawdling, would I be liable to arrest for assault?
 

chiprafp

Geek Scuffer
7,683
60
48
Weebl

The point is he will have to answer to his actions as do all police officers when they use force, he deserves more than a trial by media though and will have his opportunity to give any justification for his actions to the IPCC investigation.
 

Weebl

Flight Sergeant
1,895
0
0
Weebl

The point is he will have to answer to his actions as do all police officers when they use force, he deserves more than a trial by media though and will have his opportunity to give any justification for his actions to the IPCC investigation.

Absolutely, I am just talking about statements like 'The man is clearly not moving when asked to by the officers, he is clearly dragging his heels.' made by posters purporting to be serving Police Officers, as some kind of reasoning behind what people can clearly see on the video.

Please don't confuse me and my arguments with other posters bone statements mentioning nightsticks and dogs that are trained to kill.
 

chiprafp

Geek Scuffer
7,683
60
48
Fair one mate and its one of the reasons I hate threads like this, because all the to$$ers with an axe to grind with the police settle into their armchair jury mindset. I could never confuse you with him dont worry :)
 

Talk Wrench

E-Goat addict
Administrator
Subscriber
1000+ Posts
6,825
455
82
Dont worry Dave, Dymond Dude clearly talks from experience of dealing with unknown Males with hands in pockets, Hes also Phsychic and has x-ray vision, but then again the poisinous sh1te in his post doesnt betray his feelings towards the police at all does it :)

I've thought about what you said there Chip.

Isn't it a sad aspect of life today that a person with his hands in his pockets has to be presumed to be concealing a weapon. However, it also suggests that the person is guilty until proven innocent. A very sad state of affairs because it goes against the basis of British law. This is why I feel that people are upset about this very tragic case for all parties involved.


TW
 

chiprafp

Geek Scuffer
7,683
60
48
TW

We arent talking about a normal situation here though are we? Are we not talking about a Public order situation on a mass level? I understand what you are saying and am defending nothing because I dont have any of the evidence, The point I was making was that DD was talking out of his Ar$e by saying the guy was Unarmed, as noone can know that can they?

Also its not assuming guilt, its about officer safety, until you search someone you are dealing with you cannot assume someone is unarmed, the day you do is the day you get stabbed or worse :( In my mind the sad state of affairs is the amount of people who are carrying knives and to a lesser extent guns.
 
Last edited:

Talk Wrench

E-Goat addict
Administrator
Subscriber
1000+ Posts
6,825
455
82
TW

We arent talking about a normal situation here though are we? Are we not talking about a Public order situation on a mass level? I understand what you are saying and am defending nothing because I dont have any of the evidence, The point I was making was that DD was talking out of his Ar$e by saying the guy was Unarmed, as noone can know that can they?



Agreed.

Also its not assuming guilt, its about officer safety, until you search someone you are dealing with you cannot assume someone is unarmed, the day you do is the day you get stabbed or worse :( In my mind the sad state of affairs is the amount of people who are carrying knives and to a lesser extent guns.

Again, agreed. The angle of my post didn't portray that very well.


TW
 

John Lloyd

Warrant Officer
4,436
0
0
I've thought about what you said there Chip.

Isn't it a sad aspect of life today that a person with his hands in his pockets has to be presumed to be concealing a weapon. However, it also suggests that the person is guilty until proven innocent. A very sad state of affairs because it goes against the basis of British law. This is why I feel that people are upset about this very tragic case for all parties involved.


TW

But we have moved on a bit haven't we?

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...acre&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADBR_enGB242GB249&sa=N&um=1

Large crowd of disgruntled people, attempting to have the voices heard. Not quite the same result.
 

Dave-exfairy

Warrant Officer
2,869
0
0
Does this give any member of the public or any Police officer the right to baton strike him or shoulder charge him?
No, it doesn't. Show me in my posts where I have said it's ok?
The vast majority of us like to think the Police are on our side, seeing things like this does nothing to help that, and seeing serving coppers making excuses for it really does not help.
I haven't made excuses, people believing a heavily edited, one sided version does nothing for our image.
If I was to shove somebody out of my way because they were dawdling, would I be liable to arrest for assault?

I just wish people would see there that are 2 sides to every story and listening/seeing a heavily edited news report with a biased commentary does not make for 2 sides.
This Officer will answer for his actions should it be proved that his actions contributed to this mans death. For my mind i'm still of the opinion that he was not as innocent as the media would have us believe.
 

Dave-exfairy

Warrant Officer
2,869
0
0
Absolutely, I am just talking about statements like 'The man is clearly not moving when asked to by the officers, he is clearly dragging his heels.' made by posters purporting to be serving Police Officers, as some kind of reasoning behind what people can clearly see on the video.

Please don't confuse me and my arguments with other posters bone statements mentioning nightsticks and dogs that are trained to kill.

I'm purporting to be nothing, I do the job that I do. Would you like me to question you being in the RAF?
I have the experience to know that things are not always as they seem in situations like this.
 
F

FeedTheYak

Guest
Ive been following this post with interest, and must say that, some of the utter rubbish that has been written, by people who think they are knowledgable is almost laughable, if a human being hadn't of died !!!!

The support for a Police Officer, who has clearly acted unlawfully, is astounding. I hope that the members of this forum, who have supported unprovoked attacks on members of the public by Police Officers, dont one day find out that a relative of theirs has been killed in such a manner.

The lesson here is simple, dont abuse your powers and unlawfully assault a member of the public, because they may just drop dead 10 mins later !!!!

I dont see HM Forces, shooting innocent people in operational theatres, just because we have had a bad ****in day at the office !!! These officers had to endure 2-5 days of stressfull disorder. I wouldnt like to see how they acted if they had to put up with 4 Months of High Tempo operations in a MUCH more hostile environment.

The police do a fantastic job and dont deserve alot of the **** they get. But they bring alot of this down on themselves !! Did they learn nothing from putting a Pistol clip into an innocent mans head !!!!!

PUSHING someone who is NOT breaking the law, and especially striking them with a BATON is NOT ACCEPTABLE behaviour of a British police Officer.

And before any of you start having a go and saying I dont know the facts, I am only giving you the same view that the Met Police Chief Officer gave post this incident. IT DOESNT LOOK RIGHT, and why did it take the officer so long to own up, and why did these officers initially say that they had, had no contact with the dead man ??? (this changed once the tape was released).

Wearing a Police uniform is NOT a warrant to be above the law, the Police still have to abide by the law of this land and if they dont like that, then they should hand in their Warrant Cards and go and work elsewhere.
 
G

grumpyoldb

Guest
I think you are going to get more support than complaints about your post mate. You are saying what a lot of people are thinking.
Yes we need to wait until the full story unfolds, and yes, there are two sides to every story, but we have seen the video, and as you said, it did take a long time for the officer to step forward.

I just hope that we get the right outcome, whatever it is.
 
C

cockneyrock

Guest
I thought this article by Mary Riddell in the Daily Telegraph gives a good sumary of the whole mess this situation and country finds its self in at the moment:

Remember Ian Tomlinson. Strolling, hands in pockets, he seemed a man at ease. Seconds later, came the blow dealt by a baton-wielding police officer and the silent crash of body against pavement. Mr Tomlinson had planned an evening watching football on the television. Instead, he was destined to die in the public eye.

But for an amateur video his last minutes would have remained a private tableau of seemingly gratuitous violence. Instead, millions have watched Mr Tomlinson, a newspaper vendor, walk back from work through the G20 crowds, and fall to the ground after being pushed from behind. Witnesses saw him climb to his feet before he collapsed of a fatal heart attack a short distance away.

The shaky film footage was the cameo of a death foretold, except that the script was not supposed to run like this. Back in February, Britain's most senior police officer in charge of public order warned of social meltdown. Superintendent David Hartshorn predicted violent protests, in which middle-class individuals who had never previously joined a demonstration vented their anger.

A flashpoint, he said, could be the G20. And so the police prepared to subdue a window-smashing orgy by Tupperware anarchists and mobsters in twinsets and pearls. Things did not work out that way.

An attack on a bank aside, the main allegation of brutality centred on the police's own apparent assault on Mr Tomlinson; an episode made doubly ugly by its aftermath. As with the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, the original explanation – that police had been impeded by bottle-throwing protesters from tending Mr Tomlinson – was wrong. Without a bystander's camera, the truth might never have come to light.

Ian Tomlinson's story is not simply about rogue elements in the police or one man's suspicious death. His fate is a parable of a recession that has exposed the dark heart of authority.

Forecasts of middle-class mayhem and a lawless populace running amok have proved mendacious. People have lost their homes, their savings and their jobs with extraordinarily little complaint or protest.

Nine thousand workers are set to follow their former head, Sir Fred Goodwin, out of the Royal Bank of Scotland's door, but without his £703,000 annual pension. Behind worsening unemployment statistics lie stories of deprivation, uncertainty, fear and impotence. Yet people have borne their anguish with dignity, offering a template of good conduct. In contrast, many elements of the establishment, from police to bankers to politicians, have behaved abysmally.

The mounting clamour for a criminal investigation into Mr Tomlinson's death was met initially by silence from the Home Office. Jacqui Smith's subsequent statement was a model of neutrality. While Ms Smith, who has no operational control over the police, is doubtless limited in what she can say, her intervention may have struck critics as low key.

No such lack of passion applied on Tuesday when the Home Secretary mounted Operation Bathplug. In a tour of TV and radio stations, she explained again why she was quite right to furnish her family home at our expense. It is useless for Ms Smith to protest that she bought some (mostly unspecified) items with her own money. The Home Secretary's compendium of Hotpoint cookers, ceramic tiles and patio sets has branded her the Imelda Marcos of the Argos catalogue. Her splurge would be inexcusable at the best of times. Right now, it's an assault on public decency for the Home Secretary to recline on her freebie £575 armchair while the bailiffs hammer at voters' doors. Yes, she's unlucky that her details were leaked early. Yes, other senior politicians on both sides of the House will also be exposed. And yes, MPs should be better paid rather than boosting their income in ways not much more palatable than in 1782, when Edmund Burke advanced an anti-sleaze Bill aimed at "cutting off all those sources of influence which… have proved so fatal to this country".

But cashing in is not mandatory. No one is forcing duvet covers and stone sinks on our elected members, or insisting that backbench MPs flit around the world inspecting human rights depredations from the comfort of five-star spas. As scrupulous MPs (and there are many) could tell their colleagues, you do not need to be Aristotle to work out the ethics of expenses and "fact-finding" free trips. Bad rules do not justify bad conduct. If the system stinks, then so do its exploiters.

Gordon Brown is not one for the high life. His Scottish home, on the occasion I saw it, featured no suede scatter cushions or designer sofas. His frugal tastes may have blinded him to the mortal danger of recession sleaze. An inquiry due to report in the autumn will be far too late. While reshuffling Ms Smith would not unduly upset some colleagues ("She is nice but weak," says a fellow-minister), it would not bridge the growing chasm between the governing and the governed.

People feel helpless in the face of tainted authority. What are they meant to do? In the unlikely event that they took up smashing politicians' windows, they would have to foot the glaziers' repair bills. But most citizens don't hanker for revenge against ministers and bankers. They want humility, apologies and proof that the pain of recession is shared by all. Instead, they are being palmed off with platitudes and self-indulgence by an establishment in whom they have lost faith. Why, many wonder, should we believe that ministers are truthful about our economic future when they are so duplicitous on bathplugs? How can we rely on the police to protect us when Ian Tomlinson dies in sickening circumstances? "Trust us", the cry of authorities everywhere, has rarely sounded so hollow.

Good governance and the rule of law are the cornerstones of democracy and the glue of our fragile social contract. Britain will eventually emerge from financial chaos, but the legacy of recession may be a shattered nation, broken not – as David Cameron suggests – by those at the bottom of society, but by those at its apex.

The kinder future Mr Brown envisages, of caring capitalism, fewer nuclear arms, greener industries, civic cohesion and electric cars all round, is far from assured. Such laudable dreams risk being smashed not by a patient electorate which has made all the sacrifices required of it, but by a venal and unscrupulous establishment.

So remember Ian Tomlinson, strolling towards death in his Millwall shirt. Perhaps he believed a Home Secretary who pledged to keep people safe on the streets. Maybe he thought himself protected by all agents of law and order. If he did, he was mistaken. And so he ended his last walk home as a martyr of recession Britain and the symbol of trust betrayed.
 

busby1971

Super Moderator
Staff member
1000+ Posts
6,964
578
113
Wrong arguement

Wrong arguement

I think you'll find that there are two arguements on here, one, that appears to be influenced by the media reports and is claiming this to be an attrotious over reaction by a police officer.

The other arguement on here is the wait and see what the IPCC say once they have looked at all the facts and evidence.

There are few comments on here approving the police actions of the day.
 

chiprafp

Geek Scuffer
7,683
60
48
Ive been following this post with interest, and must say that, some of the utter rubbish that has been written, by people who think they are knowledgable is almost laughable, if a human being hadn't of died !!!!

The support for a Police Officer, who has clearly acted unlawfully, is astounding. I hope that the members of this forum, who have supported unprovoked attacks on members of the public by Police Officers, dont one day find out that a relative of theirs has been killed in such a manner.

The lesson here is simple, dont abuse your powers and unlawfully assault a member of the public, because they may just drop dead 10 mins later !!!!

I dont see HM Forces, shooting innocent people in operational theatres, just because we have had a bad ****in day at the office !!! These officers had to endure 2-5 days of stressfull disorder. I wouldnt like to see how they acted if they had to put up with 4 Months of High Tempo operations in a MUCH more hostile environment.

The police do a fantastic job and dont deserve alot of the **** they get. But they bring alot of this down on themselves !! Did they learn nothing from putting a Pistol clip into an innocent mans head !!!!!

PUSHING someone who is NOT breaking the law, and especially striking them with a BATON is NOT ACCEPTABLE behaviour of a British police Officer.

And before any of you start having a go and saying I dont know the facts, I am only giving you the same view that the Met Police Chief Officer gave post this incident. IT DOESNT LOOK RIGHT, and why did it take the officer so long to own up, and why did these officers initially say that they had, had no contact with the dead man ??? (this changed once the tape was released).

Wearing a Police uniform is NOT a warrant to be above the law, the Police still have to abide by the law of this land and if they dont like that, then they should hand in their Warrant Cards and go and work elsewhere.

Not only does it astound me how much you have assumed about this incident but also it astounds me you forget how many servicemen have been tried by the media for killing/raping civillians and also torturing prisoners in Iraq, Were you so forward in condemning them at the time, or did you allow them a trial before condemning them? . I suggest you keep your diatribe until official facts are released by the independant IPCC investigation before stating he was NOT breaking the law, or that anyone was Clearly acting unlawfully in your expert opinion.

It is not for an angry man like you to be the judge, jury and executioner, Why? Because you have none of the facts, except what the media has chosen to show you! If it is proven the officer acted unlawfully he will face the same courts any of us would, and he will deserve any punishment he is given, innocent until proven guilty and all that.
 
Last edited:
G

grumpyoldb

Guest
Not only does it astound me how much you have assumed about this incident but also it astounds me you forget how many servicemen have been tried by the media for killing/raping civillians and also torturing prisoners in Iraq, Were you so forward in condemning them at the time, or did you allow them a trial before condemning them? . I suggest you keep your diatribe until official facts are released before stating he was NOT breaking the law,

It is not for an angry man like you to be the judge, jury and executioner, Why? Because you have none of the facts!

Whatever happend to, "Innocent untill proven guilty".
Just why is it that coppers, civil or military, cannot accept that any of their collegues may just get it wrong?
We are all human, and yes, we do make mistakes. So do coppers. Stop defending this one to the hilt, because just we don't know what joe public did, you don't know what policeman plod did.

We don't know the true facts, Chip doesn't, Dave doesn't and neither does Vish......................

Stop trying to make out that the copper was innocent. He is employed by joe public, and paid out of the public purse. The public are entitled to ask questions.

I'm not saying the copper is guilty, but ffs stop trying to defend him.
 

chiprafp

Geek Scuffer
7,683
60
48
Im not defending anyone I am merely stating people need to give him the same innocence until proven guilty that everyone else expects! As I said in my previous post, if he is proven guilty he deserves his punishment.

I am more than happy to accept colleagues get it wrong but again its not down to you, me or feed the Yak to prove or disprove that, its down to the courts is it not?
 
Top