LOS 30 rumour

[sulky]

Fcuked up there! Any news on posting yet?

not yet maybe soon

 

[techie_tubby]

Would the RAF benefit from the LE Commission similar to our green bretheren? Give something for SNCO's and WO's to progress through if they want a longer career.

 

[Climebear]

Would the RAF benefit from the LE Commission similar to our green bretheren? Give something for SNCO's and WO's to progress through if they want a longer career.

We used to. It was called a branch commission.

Still have the commissioned WO scheme. Nothing to stop SNCOs from applying for a commission if they have the qualifications (and can cope with the drop in status).

 

[Keyser Söze]

How about a promotion exam rather than a highly subjective RO narrative?



That comment was valid years ago when the RAF had enough manpower. Now if your desk is undermanned, you may have no choice but to don the overalls.[/QUOTE]

spot on XVR, that was definitely my experience as a TM on a sqn; it was also my experience when I was a Sgt on a Sqn, the TM regularly got his denims on (incidentally he was a top bloke and got big plus marks from all his boys, less so from his management team sadly, who seemed to have the same mantra as Joe90)
I've worked with C/Ts who have never had any real supervisory experience (not written SJARs/F6000) prior to getting to C/T; their rather narrow experience base starts to rapidly unravel and look incompetent.

Back on topic, Cpls being offered LOS30 is a bad idea, whilst I acknowledge that some really good guys are unlucky to get picked up with their 3rd prior to 22yrs, they are in a minority. Organisations should nt make straegic policy descissions based on a minority. The vast majority of guys who don't get picked up before their 22 yr anniversary generally deserve it, they are either clowns , Med downgrades, or they have other issues such as disciplinary matters in their closet, or have just peaked at Cpl, there's nowt wrong with peaking at Cpl, we can't all be ACM's after all

 

[LilStill]

We used to. It was called a branch commission.

Still have the commissioned WO scheme. Nothing to stop SNCOs from applying for a commission if they have the qualifications (and can cope with the drop in status).

However I wonder how many SNCOs hold back because it's 6+ months of being back in Phase 1 training for, as you say, a drop in status. To see that idea really being taken up SERE would have to be extended at least to Flt Sgt's. This would have the added benefit of allowing LE officers more chance of a career - as at the moment you have to take the option exceptionally quickly after gaining your tate & lyle to stand a chance of reaching anything other than Flt Lt.

I personally don't think I'd do 15+ years (minimum), only to go to the feck-about factory and come out of it OC GD somewhere. It only looks attractive either in the early or later stages of a career. Which does nothing for promotion stopgaps, per this topic.

 

[Joe_90]

I think promotion interviews would be a good idea. You apply for promotion through your line manager and if they think you're ready you go on to an exam. The top marks in the exam are then offered interviews for the posts available.

 

[Climebear]

However I wonder how many SNCOs hold back because it's 6+ months of being back in Phase 1 training for, as you say, a drop in status. To see that idea really being taken up SERE would have to be extended at least to Flt Sgt's. This would have the added benefit of allowing LE officers more chance of a career - as at the moment you have to take the option exceptionally quickly after gaining your tate & lyle to stand a chance of reaching anything other than Flt Lt.

I personally don't think I'd do 15+ years (minimum), only to go to the feck-about factory and come out of it OC GD somewhere. It only looks attractive either in the early or later stages of a career. Which does nothing for promotion stopgaps, per this topic.

There are issues with the LE route though. In the Army they're - in the main - treated a bit like second class citizens with reduced numbers of posting opportunities - largely in QM-type functions. Even though LE officers now undertake courses such as ICSC, DE officers retain the best jobs.

Our system has its faults; but, once graduated from Sleaford Tech an officer is an officer irrespective of their former service with no specially designated posts.

 

[briggfairy]

I think promotion interviews would be a good idea. You apply for promotion through your line manager and if they think you're ready you go on to an exam. The top marks in the exam are then offered interviews for the posts available.

I actually think this is a good idea, not necessarily just an exam but a recommendation to take the exam from your current line manager to stop everyone doing it as quickly as possible or maybe some kind of promotion course that you have to pass to then be able apply for a desired role, that way the unit that needs someone can choose who they think is the best person for the role, if people want promotion enough they will take anything on offer those who are happy at their level will just sit tight, of course making people move around may take some doing but i'm sure that won't be a bigger problem than there is today.

and the interview / application process would help people get used to a normal life when they leave the bubble of the forces

 

[Spearmint]

How about a promotion exam rather than a highly subjective RO narrative?

Our RN Engineering Brethren (WAFU's) go through this, to pass they need a thorough understanding of the MAP and Organisational Structure of their current unit. That said, you then have 23yr old SNCO equivalents knocking around....

That comment was valid years ago when the RAF had enough manpower. Now if your desk is undermanned, you may have no choice but to don the overalls.

True dat, our current Wobbly has an absolute sh1t-fit if he spies more than one Trade SNCO in the office not in denims.

 

[XVR RA RA RA]

Also if the SNCO'S in overalls, then he is leading by example. Which is a good thing. All the best leaders of men lead from the front.

It annoys me that when the going gets tough, the management are nowhere to be seen.

 

[techie_tubby]

But on the other hand how many of us know of SNCOs who try to still be a Cpls and stay on the shop floor rather then take up the management role that comes with their rank and position?

 

[XVR RA RA RA]

But on the other hand how many of us know of SNCOs who try to still be a Cpls and stay on the shop floor rather then take up the management role that comes with their rank and position?

Is that taking up a bad management position where they hide behind a desk while others are responsible the job getting done? Or a good management position where they inspire people by being seen on the front and leading by example? I'm sure at one point the Royal Marine Commando selection/training for their officers was exactly the same as the men, but longer distances / faster times, to say "we will never ask you to do something we can't do ourselves".

 

[Joe_90]

Keyser Soze, perhaps the management of the TM you're talking about were pee'd off because they were having to do his work while he was on the shop floor doing his Sgt's work for them?

 

[are u looking at me]

Keyser Soze, perhaps the management of the TM you're talking about were pee'd off because they were having to do his work while he was on the shop floor doing his Sgt's work for them?

Conversely, perhaps he was displaying extra capacity and a desire to achieve the targets his management had set. The idea that if a SNCO is failing if he puts the odd appearance in on the tools is laughable. There is a time for judicious assistance whether that is advice or the occasional boost to the productivity of a trade desk. If you can't accept this or see it as a failure then you denigrate the experience and knowledge of venerable SNCO. The RAF's problem is not a lack of management rather the opposite, the senior help talk about empowerment but want to micro manage every event. I would trust my SNCO to know where best to apply his efforts. The collection of pointless statistics or CI rallies can wait, how much management do we need?

 

[Max Reheat]

With the current PVR rate in the engineering world LOS 30 would probably be the cheapest way of retaining manpower without offering bonuses and pay rises. Perhaps thats the cynics point of view.

As for SNCO's on the shop floor it seems to be the norm in many places, our rank structure was upside down and SNCO's had no choice but to go out and supervise and/or produce because of the lack of JNCO's and SAC's.

 

[Joe_90]

Conversely, perhaps he was displaying extra capacity and a desire to achieve the targets his management had set. The idea that if a SNCO is failing if he puts the odd appearance in on the tools is laughable. There is a time for judicious assistance whether that is advice or the occasional boost to the productivity of a trade desk. If you can't accept this or see it as a failure then you denigrate the experience and knowledge of venerable SNCO. The RAF's problem is not a lack of management rather the opposite, the senior help talk about empowerment but want to micro manage every event. I would trust my SNCO to know where best to apply his efforts. The collection of pointless statistics or CI rallies can wait, how much management do we need?

I agree that Sgts should spread their time between the shop floor and a desk as they see fit. When the Chief has to start doing it I question someone's managerial abilities.

 

[XVR RA RA RA]

With the current PVR rate in the engineering world LOS 30 would probably be the cheapest way of retaining manpower without offering bonuses and pay rises. Perhaps thats the cynics point of view.

As for SNCO's on the shop floor it seems to be the norm in many places, our rank structure was upside down and SNCO's had no choice but to go out and supervise and/or produce because of the lack of JNCO's and SAC's.

True about the PVR rate. But I don't see what the incentive is to stay once you qualify for an immediate pension at 22 yrs? Lots of people are walking into jobs and even a new job that pays less would be ok if your pension is topping it up.

The raf really needs to sort it's act out, it needs to start retaining these people through positive incentives.

 

[Max Reheat]

I agree that Sgts should spread their time between the shop floor and a desk as they see fit. When the Chief has to start doing it I question someone's managerial abilities.

The clue is in the title 'Chief Technician' They are still technicians at the end of the day and probably hold a lot of auths and have valuable experience that may require them to go out on to the shop floor occasionally.

I for one could think of nothing worse as a techy than being relegated behind a desk for the rest of my career as a reward for achieving a particular rank, I've had it once as a SNCO and it was the worst year of my career.

 

[Noidea]

This thread will soon be irrelevant as NEM will change the LOS 30 issue, as well as the 22 bit!

 

[Downsizer]

This thread will soon be irrelevant as NEM will change the LOS 30 issue, as well as the 22 bit!

Flesh it out then, what's it going to be?