LOS 30 rumour

[sp4rks]

So, the latest rumour i heard the other day was that it was being considered whether or not to offer Cpl's coming up to the end of their 22 the chance to request LOS 30.
If you ask me the chances of that happening are slim to none, especially given the need to continuously downsize and the lack of promotion chances nowadays, although the way things have been 'in' over the last few years nothing would surprise me.
On the other hand if it were true would you consider taking up the offer, if only to ensure you still have job security or even more time to get your third banana. It would be a great way of keeping experience.
I'd consider it as i have enjoyed my 20 years so far, and for me it would be for job security, nothing more.

So come on, what would you do!

 

[Trusty Adjusty]

Terrible idea, we can talk about "retaining experience" until the cows come home but the impact of such an initiative would be negative in the long term.

Promotion would stagnate due to the bottle neck, all those who either are not good enough to leave or are quite happy to take the payslip with little desire to progress would further reduce the opportunity for those below them in the pyramid.

I work with far too many people currently who have done 22 and failed to improve themselves beyond basic trade qualifications. I see them all sh1tt1ng themselves as they prepare to leave, no house, no HNC/HND/Degree and no planning for a future away from the RAF spoon feeding they've had for the previous 2 decades.

Open up LOS30 and EVERY single one of these morons (and there is a lot of them) will sign on. Thus we are left with the dregs of the gene pool, biding their time, no doubt with a cheeky med downgrade aswell, ruining promotion, clogging up SFA/SLA and dragging the RAF towards an increasingly inevitable early grave.

 

[Joe_90]

No effing way. Personally I think they should be going the other way. No offer to LOS30 until you're a FS. No offer to 22 until you're a SNCO. How much experience do we really need? Is a guy with twenty years experience really twice as useful as a guy with ten?

 

[XVR RA RA RA]

Terrible idea, we can talk about "retaining experience" until the cows come home but the impact of such an initiative would be negative in the long term.

Promotion would stagnate due to the bottle neck, all those who either are not good enough to leave or are quite happy to take the payslip with little desire to progress would further reduce the opportunity for those below them in the pyramid.

I work with far too many people currently who have done 22 and failed to improve themselves beyond basic trade qualifications. I see them all sh1tt1ng themselves as they prepare to leave, no house, no HNC/HND/Degree and no planning for a future away from the RAF spoon feeding they've had for the previous 2 decades.

Open up LOS30 and EVERY single one of these morons (and there is a lot of them) will sign on. Thus we are left with the dregs of the gene pool, biding their time, no doubt with a cheeky med downgrade aswell, ruining promotion, clogging up SFA/SLA and dragging the RAF towards an increasingly inevitable early grave.

So rather than moaning. What are you doing to develop these airmen? They are only as good as their "inspirational and encouraging" management.

 

[Stevienics]

I guess he is saying that after having done 22 years you will be what, 40 minimum? If the penny hasn't dropped by then it's really not worth a SNCO expending the effort on a grown man to point out the blindingly bloody obvious.

If you are not adult enough by that time to pick yourself up, you need to be somewhere else.

 

[XVR RA RA RA]

I guess he is saying that after having done 22 years you will be what, 40 minimum? If the penny hasn't dropped by then it's really not worth a SNCO expending the effort on a grown man to point out the blindingly bloody obvious.

If you are not adult enough by that time to pick yourself up, you need to be somewhere else.

Or maybe there's hardly any promotion in their trade? While others have been lucky enough to get their name picked in the promotion raffle.

 

[sp4rks]

Don't get me wrong, i would love my third and am of the opinion that if you don't push you don't get, but having been one of the unlucky ones who were practically told you're getting it and then seeing the numbers get cut and lose out only to be a B ggrade afterwards i'd welcome the extra time to push for my third some more, ten year corporals is not unheard of in TG4, especially from the ex 3's and 11's, and it doesn't mean that because it's taken a decade to get promoted they are crap, some are, some aren't, it's just how the numbers roll at the end of the day and are you in the right place at the right time.

I wasn't trying to start a debate, just wondered what you would do.

I'm well aware of the bad side of this and it is big, but given the complete lack of promotion around right now would it really make that much difference, to some trades yes, to some no.

off on Easter leave now, laters.

 

[XVR RA RA RA]

off on Easter leave now, laters.

Part timer

 

[bitter123]

No effing way. Personally I think they should be going the other way. No offer to LOS30 until you're a FS. No offer to 22 until you're a SNCO. How much experience do we really need? Is a guy with twenty years experience really twice as useful as a guy with ten?

This wouldn't work for aircraft trades for those who were subject to the additional ranks of jnr tech and chf tech. A flight sgt by the 22 year point for those who went through jnr tech and chf tech is virtually impossible.

Fastest reasonable promotion possible for those on old system

jnr tech 4.5 years
cpl 7.5 to 8 years
sgt 13yrs
chf tech 18years
flt sgt 23 years

Also there appears to be a distinct correlation between those who excell under the raf promotion system and those who have good soft skills (communication, leadership and management or at least the appearance of those qualities). On the other hand there are many guys with fantastic technical ability which is much required by the raf in an engineering environment who do not progress as they lack these soft skills, these guys really do need to be retained or the raf will suffer.

 

[Joe_90]

1. There are no JTs anymore. If you know a JT they are never making it to Cpl.
2. If everyone was subjected to it them promotion would be faster.
3. Soft skills are required at higher ranks more than hands on technical skills because the job becomes more management based and less on the tools the higher you go. I don't want a CT with no understanding of how to deal with anything other than how to fix broken things. I want them to be able to talk to the SAC who's having problems, or discuss that SAC with the WO without feeling out their depth discussing issues that don't involve OM15.

 

[sulky]

1. There are no JTs anymore. If you know a JT they are never making it to Cpl.

Im a JT have been for 12 years and never got promoted even with good assessments....until now just waiting for the posting notice

 

[bitter123]

1. There are no JTs anymore. If you know a JT they are never making it to Cpl.
2. If everyone was subjected to it them promotion would be faster.
3. Soft skills are required at higher ranks more than hands on technical skills because the job becomes more management based and less on the tools the higher you go. I don't want a CT with no understanding of how to deal with anything other than how to fix broken things. I want them to be able to talk to the SAC who's having problems, or discuss that SAC with the WO without feeling out their depth discussing issues that don't involve OM15.

1. There are people who were jnr techs still in the raf
2. Promotions are more often but the top of the ladder is still far away.
3. I agree with your point, however you still need to retain those with technical ability or you'll end up with the management of drones whose personal matters are well looked after but they're unable to solve complex problems and are ultimately ineffective.

 

[LucyQuipment]

1. There are no JTs anymore. If you know a JT they are never making it to Cpl.

Im a JT have been for 12 years and never got promoted even with good assessments....until now just waiting for the posting notice

Fcuked up there! Any news on posting yet?

 

[Joe_90]

1. There are people who were jnr techs still in the raf
2. Promotions are more often but the top of the ladder is still far away.
3. I agree with your point, however you still need to retain those with technical ability or you'll end up with the management of drones whose personal matters are well looked after but they're unable to solve complex problems and are ultimately ineffective.

1. I know, I was a JT.
2. Promotion always will be far away but to retain good people you have to offer a realistic career path. Nearly 30 years to get any sort of real management post doesn't cut the mustard anymore. A lad I joined up with left about 2 years after his FT course. He is now the boss of the guy who offers jobs to people of my level when they leave the RAF. He only left with an HNC. I fully admit that if such a change was introduced tomorrow it would screw loads of guys in my position. In five years no-one still serving would even remember our names. If FF 2020 is about the future someone needs to have the balls to make proper change.
3. My opinion has always been that to get to Cpl, and to a lesser extent Sgt, you have to show technical proficiency. Any promotions after that will and should be based on more management related skills. You've proved you're technically able, you can understand what your workforce are telling you and you can relay that up the chain. You can also make decisions based on your previous experience and the info your workforce give you. If you're in a management role and feel the need to put your overalls on and turn spanners everyday you're failing in the job you're paid to do and the job the RAF needs you to do.

Sulky, you got me there, congratulations. You must be the last one now though, surely?

 

[sulky]

i heard less than 10 and according to manning im the most senior j/t and below in the fairy trade in terms of time in rank by quite a way .....funny really as at the ex norn irish raf base im at, they have just had about 50 MTP JT tabs come in. I reckon that if that's the same for the rest of the RAF then i think they may have over ordered

 

[bitter123]

1. I know, I was a JT.
2. Promotion always will be far away but to retain good people you have to offer a realistic career path. Nearly 30 years to get any sort of real management post doesn't cut the mustard anymore. A lad I joined up with left about 2 years after his FT course. He is now the boss of the guy who offers jobs to people of my level when they leave the RAF. He only left with an HNC. I fully admit that if such a change was introduced tomorrow it would screw loads of guys in my position. In five years no-one still serving would even remember our names. If FF 2020 is about the future someone needs to have the balls to make proper change.
3. My opinion has always been that to get to Cpl, and to a lesser extent Sgt, you have to show technical proficiency. Any promotions after that will and should be based on more management related skills. You've proved you're technically able, you can understand what your workforce are telling you and you can relay that up the chain. You can also make decisions based on your previous experience and the info your workforce give you. If you're in a management role and feel the need to put your overalls on and turn spanners everyday you're failing in the job you're paid to do and the job the RAF needs you to do.

Sulky, you got me there, congratulations. You must be the last one now though, surely?

1. So was I
2. Think you've gone off at a bit of a tangent, you suggested by having the additional jnr tech and chf tech help promotion as it kept the ball rolling. My point is that the additional ranks slowed actual progression for actual reward .i.e jnr tech gave no actual reward due to pay 2000 and chf tech is another obstruction on the way to flight sgt. To suggest that only people who make flt sgt can sign for Los 30 wouldn't work as it takes over 22 years to get to that point in an aircraft trade.
3. I have seen countless people get promoted to a management role who are complete idiots when it comes to the technical aspects of the job. They haven't proved they're technically able but play the game, they cry when they get poor assessments, they manipulate their first ro's, they raise their profile by announcing to the workplace when have done something of merit even if its bull****, they do secondary duties instead of their actual job. This is the type of person who gets ahead. When the people who are competent take up the slack when this promotion candidate is off doing secondary duties as they can't actually do their primary job. Also technical ability isn't just turning spanners and anyone who thinks that is an idiot.

 

[Joe_90]

I never suggested that JT and CT were better, you've misunderstood me. If an idea like mine was introduced it wouldn't take 22 years to get to CT or above because everyone would be getting promoted faster or leaving the RAF. As for your useless colleagues, that is a mark of weak RO's if it's true. That will always be the case unfortunately.

 

[techie_tubby]

they raise their profile by announcing to the workplace when have done something of merit even if its bull****, they do secondary duties instead of their actual job. This is the type of person who gets ahead. When the people who are competent take up the slack when this promotion candidate is off doing secondary duties as they can't actually do their primary job. Also technical ability isn't just turning spanners and anyone who thinks that is an idiot.

Unfortunately isn't that what the board look for?

 

[Running Man]

LOS 30 rumour

It's a double edged sword no doubt. We all know people who have left at the end of their time only to see others we preceive of lesser ability progress. Over the past 20 years we've had several downsizing exercises and good people have suffered as a result, kicked out or held back as promotion dries up. One year, you're a dead cert A grade, the next a B cat, it doesn't mean all of a sudden you've become bad at your job, could be something as innocuous as a posting at the wrong time.

If and it's a big if this were to happen I suspect it'll be managed on a case by case basis, same as has been done with extensions to 12. Is there value in keeping you past your current engagement, yes or no?

Then there's also the New Employment Model and suggestion of working past 55 to 60/65. How that will complicate matters even further

 

[XVR RA RA RA]

My opinion has always been that to get to Cpl, and to a lesser extent Sgt, you have to show technical proficiency. Any promotions after that will and should be based on more management related skills. You've proved you're technically able, you can understand what your workforce are telling you and you can relay that up the chain. You can also make decisions based on your previous experience and the info your workforce give you.

How about a promotion exam rather than a highly subjective RO narrative?

If you're in a management role and feel the need to put your overalls on and turn spanners everyday you're failing in the job you're paid to do and the job the RAF needs you to do.

That comment was valid years ago when the RAF had enough manpower. Now if your desk is undermanned, you may have no choice but to don the overalls.