T
The Lord Flasheart
Guest
Why the feck should we? Next you'll be suggesting we 'high five' each other every time we have a blue on blue!
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Why the feck should we? Next you'll be suggesting we 'high five' each other every time we have a blue on blue!
G
gloriousglenn
Guest
aes69 said:
Delete: experience
Insert: dead wood
Delete: young people for less time in the job
Insert: young adults with fresh ideas
It won't matter what the rank structure is we'll always have substandard equipment.
I'm not saying that the Army have a perfect system, but you don't hear them moaning, do you?
What says The Lord Flasheart?
B
baron von shaggedoften
Guest
At the moment all the RAF can encourage into service are 17 year old knobbers who didn`t like working in McDonalds, because it meant even less time on the playstrapon 2.
Add to this current redundancies and PVR`s of better quality tradesmen, of all the trades, and you end up with an air force that just can`t be bothered to get out of bed in the morning.
When will people with scrambled egg laden hats realise that they should be looking after us properly, in every sense. Pay, rank structures, sports, family matters etc have all gone to s**t to try to save a few pence. I would have prefered a meagre pay rise instead of getting a crappy rucksack that fell apart after 5 minutes. thats where they need to save money.
The rank structure is a farce whatever way you look at it, compared to our chums in the army and navy, but as our senior officers couldn`t give a monkeys for us, what hope have we got.
Add to this current redundancies and PVR`s of better quality tradesmen, of all the trades, and you end up with an air force that just can`t be bothered to get out of bed in the morning.
When will people with scrambled egg laden hats realise that they should be looking after us properly, in every sense. Pay, rank structures, sports, family matters etc have all gone to s**t to try to save a few pence. I would have prefered a meagre pay rise instead of getting a crappy rucksack that fell apart after 5 minutes. thats where they need to save money.
The rank structure is a farce whatever way you look at it, compared to our chums in the army and navy, but as our senior officers couldn`t give a monkeys for us, what hope have we got.
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The Lord Flasheart
Guest
The Army is in a similar boat (or should that be Navy?) concerning the perceived standard of recruits and the loss of experience at the other end.
I think the rank structure comparison is a bit misleading due to length of service of each. The Army, by default bin blokes after 22 years. You have to be rather lucky to go beyond this. LSL (Long Service List), continuance (5 year tranches) or Late Entry commission (the minimum rank to apply now is Sgt).
The Army tend to envy you crabs to a certain degree (not the mess kit obviously) because you chaps (trade dependant?) appear to have a career until 55. I believe some trades within the Army are looking at this too. It has always been a waste chucking someone out at 40 because he is believed to be physically 'past it' (an alarming amount of 35+ blokes are a lot fitter than most 18 year olds! See opening statement ).
Regarding our rank structure. Tech trades tend to promote to L/Cpl earlier. For example, a REME aircraft tech will be promoted to L/Cpl on completion of tech training. Once he has completed his upgraders course, he will promote to full Cpl. If he decides or is selected for Artificer, he will go straight to SSgt (the course is a year or two I think).
In the Infantry, a chap could spend most of his career as a private soldier if he wished (although I don’t think there are many like that knocking around nowadays). But, as with a lot of things, if the guy sparks, he can go from Pte to WOII in 15 years.
On the aircrew side of life, we have done away with Cpl pilots. A chap could put his selection papers in as a L/Cpl, pass selection and get loaded onto a pilots course as a full Cpl then on gaining his wings would be made acting Sgt. What happens after that is up to the AAC lottery committee.
I think that due to a pongos shorter career, he will generally get promoted quicker than his crab counter part but be cast into the open world at that funny age - 40.
And fer fecks sake, don’t go along the yanks route where a Sgt is actually a lower rank than a mess tin!
I think the rank structure comparison is a bit misleading due to length of service of each. The Army, by default bin blokes after 22 years. You have to be rather lucky to go beyond this. LSL (Long Service List), continuance (5 year tranches) or Late Entry commission (the minimum rank to apply now is Sgt).
The Army tend to envy you crabs to a certain degree (not the mess kit obviously) because you chaps (trade dependant?) appear to have a career until 55. I believe some trades within the Army are looking at this too. It has always been a waste chucking someone out at 40 because he is believed to be physically 'past it' (an alarming amount of 35+ blokes are a lot fitter than most 18 year olds! See opening statement
). Regarding our rank structure. Tech trades tend to promote to L/Cpl earlier. For example, a REME aircraft tech will be promoted to L/Cpl on completion of tech training. Once he has completed his upgraders course, he will promote to full Cpl. If he decides or is selected for Artificer, he will go straight to SSgt (the course is a year or two I think).
In the Infantry, a chap could spend most of his career as a private soldier if he wished (although I don’t think there are many like that knocking around nowadays). But, as with a lot of things, if the guy sparks, he can go from Pte to WOII in 15 years.
On the aircrew side of life, we have done away with Cpl pilots. A chap could put his selection papers in as a L/Cpl, pass selection and get loaded onto a pilots course as a full Cpl then on gaining his wings would be made acting Sgt. What happens after that is up to the AAC lottery committee.
I think that due to a pongos shorter career, he will generally get promoted quicker than his crab counter part but be cast into the open world at that funny age - 40.
And fer fecks sake, don’t go along the yanks route where a Sgt is actually a lower rank than a mess tin!
G
gloriousglenn
Guest
So it looks as though neither of us have the right solution! Any fish heads on here to comment?
B
baron von shaggedoften
Guest
just how many types of SGT are there in the spam forces? and how many stripes do they need to indicate said SGT? I swear i`ve seen 8 stripes on a blokes arm.
baron von shaggedoften said:At the moment all the RAF can encourage into service are 17 year old knobbers who didn`t like working in McDonalds, because it meant even less time on the playstrapon 2.
Add to this current redundancies and PVR`s of better quality tradesmen, of all the trades, and you end up with an air force that just can`t be bothered to get out of bed in the morning.
When will people with scrambled egg laden hats realise that they should be looking after us properly, in every sense. Pay, rank structures, sports, family matters etc have all gone to s**t to try to save a few pence. I would have prefered a meagre pay rise instead of getting a crappy rucksack that fell apart after 5 minutes. thats where they need to save money.
The rank structure is a farce whatever way you look at it, compared to our chums in the army and navy, but as our senior officers couldn`t give a monkeys for us, what hope have we got.
I don't want to rubbish everything you just said as I can't help but slightly agree with some of it. As for the 17 year old knobbers comment, surely these are the guys that will grow up and turn into the better quality tradesmen as time goes on (remember we were all that age at one time with all that entailed like learning and becoming more mature).
And as for the scambled egg laden hats, from the people I have spoken too they are trying. However the amount of money is finite and we can't exactly stop flying so we can all have life a little easier.
camelspyyder
LAC
- 19
- 0
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15 stripes on my arm
15 stripes on my arm
Baron
8 stripes in the USAF is a Chief Master Sgt( flight sergeant in english)...so if i worked for them i could have those plus 7 more below for 21 years service
total - 15!!!
15 stripes on my arm
Baron
8 stripes in the USAF is a Chief Master Sgt( flight sergeant in english)...so if i worked for them i could have those plus 7 more below for 21 years service
total - 15!!!
H
Heywood_Jablowme
Guest
Come 5 pm all the techies are gone from where I am. I think they are the first out the door.
What do you expect bringing back FLEMs, or what ever they are called now. Some of these guys have degrees!! Will admit there are some that make it past the gate, that should not have made it past the AFCO door.
D
dolphinops
Guest
NST totally concur with your TG9 comments.
It's a ridiculous situation made completely and utterly worse by the heirarchy.
(As usual)
And yes I'm carrying a chip... I got caught in the black hole of promotions in the 90's
How about retention bonus payments then........?
It's a ridiculous situation made completely and utterly worse by the heirarchy.
(As usual)
And yes I'm carrying a chip... I got caught in the black hole of promotions in the 90's
How about retention bonus payments then........?
G
goatblower
Guest
try working on a camp with 24 hr shift cover for the flying programme but the station pukes dont.....Heywood_Jablowme said:
A
aes69
Guest
Someone dial 999, Lord F made a post without ripping into anyone, or extracting enough urine to pass all the way round the rugby club bar!
And very valid it was too.
It swings & round-a-bouts really. In the RAF you have to slog it out for the very slow promotion, and even then it's only a possibility. Granted wages aren't bad and we don't get messed about as much as our brown jobbies (no offence intended), but it does suck for a 35 year old bloke who has 17 years service under his belt, hoping his numbers come up in the Sgts lottery.
As previously mentioned, the army (in most trades) have an accelerated level of promotion compared to the RAF, but to be slung out of a job that you've given your life for (sometimes quite literally) at age 40 ish isn't my idea of a reward, even if you do manage the dizzy heights of the Tate & Lyle.
There is a problem, and the more democratic our nation becomes, the more difficult it is to bring things to an even keel.
But back to my original point, Flash really must be tom & dick!
And very valid it was too.
It swings & round-a-bouts really. In the RAF you have to slog it out for the very slow promotion, and even then it's only a possibility. Granted wages aren't bad and we don't get messed about as much as our brown jobbies (no offence intended), but it does suck for a 35 year old bloke who has 17 years service under his belt, hoping his numbers come up in the Sgts lottery.
As previously mentioned, the army (in most trades) have an accelerated level of promotion compared to the RAF, but to be slung out of a job that you've given your life for (sometimes quite literally) at age 40 ish isn't my idea of a reward, even if you do manage the dizzy heights of the Tate & Lyle.
There is a problem, and the more democratic our nation becomes, the more difficult it is to bring things to an even keel.
But back to my original point, Flash really must be tom & dick!
T
The Lord Flasheart
Guest
Poke it you sheeps cnut.
Horses for courses though I suppose. A slower and longer career or a quicker and shorter career? It would be nice to have the best of both worlds. The turn over in the Army is higher than the RAF but not sure what that has to do with the price of fish.
Horses for courses though I suppose. A slower and longer career or a quicker and shorter career? It would be nice to have the best of both worlds. The turn over in the Army is higher than the RAF but not sure what that has to do with the price of fish.
R
Ratt
Guest
As a memeber of TG9, i can only suggest the problem lies in the requirements of other trades and agencies.
A few years back as a CPL out-of-area I was amazed to find myself doing jobs that I had previously done as a first tourist SAC. When I asked the SQN Boss why we were using CPLs his reply was "the fleet prefers the experience that a CPL gives".
Now, a good 7 years on, we are struggling to fill the established slots for CPL hence the 5 minute promotions. What we need is the Highrachy to realise that CPL does not equal experience if you promote them after 2 bleeding minutes.
Swings and roundabouts tho, when I were a lad it was the techies and adminers that went up the ladder fast.
As for the Army, my AGC mate tells me they are starting to allow folk to stay in over 40.
A few years back as a CPL out-of-area I was amazed to find myself doing jobs that I had previously done as a first tourist SAC. When I asked the SQN Boss why we were using CPLs his reply was "the fleet prefers the experience that a CPL gives".
Now, a good 7 years on, we are struggling to fill the established slots for CPL hence the 5 minute promotions. What we need is the Highrachy to realise that CPL does not equal experience if you promote them after 2 bleeding minutes.
Swings and roundabouts tho, when I were a lad it was the techies and adminers that went up the ladder fast.
As for the Army, my AGC mate tells me they are starting to allow folk to stay in over 40.
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T
The Lord Flasheart
Guest
I think you are right regarding allowing bods to stay on plus of 22/40. If you are in a Teeth Arm (Inf, Tankies etc) you will need to prove you are still up to the fitness level to continue. If you are a shiny arse (bluntie, AGC etc) you just have to prove you can still breath.
D
dolphinops
Guest
Ratt, as a SNCO you'll still be doing LAC tasks.
What did you expect to get for your time and efforts on task....respect??
Not from the RAF!
What did you expect to get for your time and efforts on task....respect??
Not from the RAF!
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Almost_done
Guest
During a Pay 2000 (Shafted) roadshow the Wg Cmdr asked for a straw poll on who would like to leave the RAF after 22 as a WO or leave after 22 as a Cpl. Humm suprise, suprise the answer from the whole audence was 22 as a WO.
Yes, the RAF does allow certain ppl to stay in till 55, however thats the WO and FS ranks the rest of us have to compete in a very unfair promotion system (gosh how many secondary duties do I have to do to get promoted Sir).
Therefore you have an old senior upper management structure that has personnel who joined up in the early 70's. Yes they are invaluable in the experience they hold, but for gods sake promote them (2wks KFS at Cranwell, they might improve the officer cadre) and free up the top slots to induce a positive promotion ladder, at present, redundancy excluded, its is byatch to get promoted unless you sacrifice yourself on the brownose alter. Thats something I will never do!
Dons flameproof jacket...........................!
Yes, the RAF does allow certain ppl to stay in till 55, however thats the WO and FS ranks the rest of us have to compete in a very unfair promotion system (gosh how many secondary duties do I have to do to get promoted Sir).
Therefore you have an old senior upper management structure that has personnel who joined up in the early 70's. Yes they are invaluable in the experience they hold, but for gods sake promote them (2wks KFS at Cranwell, they might improve the officer cadre) and free up the top slots to induce a positive promotion ladder, at present, redundancy excluded, its is byatch to get promoted unless you sacrifice yourself on the brownose alter. Thats something I will never do!
Dons flameproof jacket...........................!
D
dolphinops
Guest
Totally agree! Good post.