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Standards
Guest
The FOMz said:I wouldn't want to weigh you down you with his name
Then could it be a certain Rob?
FOMz, I should be careful here if I were you.
You intimated that you were not happy with, what I assume, is your picture being put on this site, as you mentioned that the moderator would or perhaps should remove it. Something which I am fully in agreement with. Classic case of someone abusing their position. However, I know one of the names that you have placed on your last two posts. If I do then there is a good chance that others do also. Perhaps you would like to edit your posts in much the same way as you would like another person edit a certain picture. The two names you have mentioned may (and I say may as I could be wrong) have never visited this site.
Standards!
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Standards
Guest
The FOMz said:
Have spoken to one of the two you named earlier. He is happy that you have removed his name. But just to make it fair to all, shouldn't you complete the task you set out to do. Or is that beyond you?
Standards!
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Fenella
Guest
Come on girls, play by the rules!
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
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Dont you just love handbags??
Oi Fenella are you still beating up Chorlton?
Oi Fenella are you still beating up Chorlton?
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Fenella
Guest
on a regular basis. Those wheelies really do get on my chin!
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
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Wheelies on your chin???? Could be worse, but hey I aint going there!
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Hey_you_in_the_bushes
Guest
the main problem with the trade, as pointed out by one or two people, is that, unfortunately, the instruction at FOTF is at a low standard. Therefore, this filters down to the trainees, who then go to a base with knowledge that bears no relevance to the job they are about to perform. A couple of quick fixes to help in the short term:-
a. Make the course longer, so that it doesn't mean that the highest result in the class is for the trainee with the best memory, instead of the best understanding, and gives a better chance for the trainee to gauge the meaning behind a point, and work out why something is, not just what it is.
b. Make the pass mark higher - 60% isn't high enough for a trade training exam where the trainee then sits in a tower within a month. Perhaps 75 - 80% would be a better target, bearing all the flight safety issues in mind.
c. Station vistits - currently (well, the last time i looked), trainees visit one fast-jet station. This gives them no scope of thought with regard to the workings of a transport base. Perhaps a visit to both fast-jet AND transport bases, and show the full picture.
d. More time in the simulators, allowing a trainee the time to actually practise the job they are about to perform.
Anyhow, that's my two penny worth - i'd write more, and in more detail, but i guess i best get some work done sometime, lol.
a. Make the course longer, so that it doesn't mean that the highest result in the class is for the trainee with the best memory, instead of the best understanding, and gives a better chance for the trainee to gauge the meaning behind a point, and work out why something is, not just what it is.
b. Make the pass mark higher - 60% isn't high enough for a trade training exam where the trainee then sits in a tower within a month. Perhaps 75 - 80% would be a better target, bearing all the flight safety issues in mind.
c. Station vistits - currently (well, the last time i looked), trainees visit one fast-jet station. This gives them no scope of thought with regard to the workings of a transport base. Perhaps a visit to both fast-jet AND transport bases, and show the full picture.
d. More time in the simulators, allowing a trainee the time to actually practise the job they are about to perform.
Anyhow, that's my two penny worth - i'd write more, and in more detail, but i guess i best get some work done sometime, lol.
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
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Thats a harsh and sweeping statement to make:
1. Have you sat on a lesson by every single instructor?
2. Do you hold Q-GT-I?
3. Are you an expert in Standards and trade instruction?
The problem that FOTF got was standards preps, stopped them thinking for themselves and obtaining "command of subject knowledge"
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Hey_you_in_the_bushes
Guest
well, having recently come out of FOTF (within the last two years), my answers are
a. yes
b. no
c. no
After being on the receiving end of FOTF, i feel that whatever problems that need solving should be nipped in the bud - you can't teach an old dog new tricks (no implying of any kind), but you can bend a young mind to your will.
a. yes
b. no
c. no
After being on the receiving end of FOTF, i feel that whatever problems that need solving should be nipped in the bud - you can't teach an old dog new tricks (no implying of any kind), but you can bend a young mind to your will.
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
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Thing is, what will a pass mark of 75% or more achieve? It will not improve the end product, it will not mae them better assistants.
Simulators end up as monkey see, monkey do, they learn the exercises, it becomes parrot fashion. Easiest way to do it believe it or not is more OJT, deal with the real world. Yes I know its a drain on the end units but the understanding is going to be quicker.
"Tell me and Ill forget"
"Show me and Ill remember"
"Involve me and Ill understand!", involve the FOTF graduates in the real world at an earlier stage and thats going to be OJT. Sooner the better.
A student with the best scores is not always the best product at a user unit. Any one who tries hard enough can get high scores consistently but academic knowledge does not guarantee validation at the unit. Practise makes perfect
Simulators end up as monkey see, monkey do, they learn the exercises, it becomes parrot fashion. Easiest way to do it believe it or not is more OJT, deal with the real world. Yes I know its a drain on the end units but the understanding is going to be quicker.
"Tell me and Ill forget"
"Show me and Ill remember"
"Involve me and Ill understand!", involve the FOTF graduates in the real world at an earlier stage and thats going to be OJT. Sooner the better.
A student with the best scores is not always the best product at a user unit. Any one who tries hard enough can get high scores consistently but academic knowledge does not guarantee validation at the unit. Practise makes perfect
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Hey_you_in_the_bushes
Guest
very true, very true. However, a higher pass mark will allow the students a better knowledge for when they get to the OJT. OJT is by far the best way to teach someone, as you pointed out. But, surely an more up to date simulator, and more time in it would allow the trainee, and the designated base, a better chance to just have to go into "On the job tweaking", instead of "On the job training". Or, even, somehow (and i haven't a clue how this would work, but the theory is fine), have a trainer at the designated base actually come over to FOTF to pick the trainee up at some point, meet the trainee, place them in situ at the base for a day to see how everything all works, show them round the base a bit, etc.
Sorry - reality just kicked in then - wouldn't this cost money, lol?
I think i'm rambling again!
Sorry - reality just kicked in then - wouldn't this cost money, lol?
I think i'm rambling again!
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
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The trainees in the RAF are too fluffy as it is with the way they are treated, turn up at the unit and get stuck in, far easier!! Most units have a mentor for all that arrival stuff anyhow
Raising the passmark wont make for better students, just shows themselves to be better at showing a displaced threshold, knowing the 8 safety precautions and can actually understand alt settings. All that academic knowledge does not guarantee a better person in the field. Its a shame you cant teach common sense as it has far more use in the outside world than a 75% pass mark
Sims are good for showing the basics, thats what they need is basics, get them in the real world and involve them
Raising the passmark wont make for better students, just shows themselves to be better at showing a displaced threshold, knowing the 8 safety precautions and can actually understand alt settings. All that academic knowledge does not guarantee a better person in the field. Its a shame you cant teach common sense as it has far more use in the outside world than a 75% pass mark
Sims are good for showing the basics, thats what they need is basics, get them in the real world and involve them
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Hey_you_in_the_bushes
Guest
very true. It is all pink and fluffy now - when i went through Halton, out of my course of about 30 - 40, at any one time, we had about twenty people who couldn't do any PEd 'cos their feet hurt - one girl even went as far as to get out of the pass-out parade cos she had blisters and they hurt her feet. I couldn't help but notice that they didn't hurt when she had her pointy shoes on, with 4" heels, dancing in the bar later that night, but who am i to notice these things.
Of course, that same night, we ended up dancing on the table tops.
Alcohol is a great leveller, huh
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FOMP
Guest
SSH
I disagree with you, IIRC when I went through TTF many moons ago the pass mark was 75% and you got a DP for 80%. The course marks are also being frigged at the moment anyway, some of them get 100% for a so called aircraft recognition test, then when they arrive cannot tell the difference between a Tornado and a Canberra!
A Q annotation for an instructor obviously means absolutely nothing as it does not improve the knowledge of the trainee does it. Either put instructors into FOTF who have some proper experience or lets not bother and if you are convinced that OJT is the best form of training then lets cut out the middleman and disband FOTF and send the ACs straight to designated units from Halton. We could divvy up the instructors that are thrown up by FOTF closing and that will give the designated Teerminal Trg units more bods to train with. Just think of all the money that will be saved, the LACs will be taught properly from the start, in a real environment, they won't have to be re-programmed out of their "Shawburyisms". Eureka........problem solved.
I disagree with you, IIRC when I went through TTF many moons ago the pass mark was 75% and you got a DP for 80%. The course marks are also being frigged at the moment anyway, some of them get 100% for a so called aircraft recognition test, then when they arrive cannot tell the difference between a Tornado and a Canberra!
A Q annotation for an instructor obviously means absolutely nothing as it does not improve the knowledge of the trainee does it. Either put instructors into FOTF who have some proper experience or lets not bother and if you are convinced that OJT is the best form of training then lets cut out the middleman and disband FOTF and send the ACs straight to designated units from Halton. We could divvy up the instructors that are thrown up by FOTF closing and that will give the designated Teerminal Trg units more bods to train with. Just think of all the money that will be saved, the LACs will be taught properly from the start, in a real environment, they won't have to be re-programmed out of their "Shawburyisms". Eureka........problem solved.
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The origional Pob
Guest
confused??
confused??
You guys want to try being in trade group three...ooops sorry 4.........saying that we are all in the same boat!...says alot when there are more people working for M & S than in the RAF!!!....job prospects me thinks?
confused??
You guys want to try being in trade group three...ooops sorry 4.........saying that we are all in the same boat!...says alot when there are more people working for M & S than in the RAF!!!....job prospects me thinks?
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
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FOMP you have cracked it... DISTANCE LEARNING! They can do the course before they join, couple of handouts, a Janes recognition book and 101 ways to make tea!
I don think the passmark has ever been 75% buddy, or at least for one hell of a long time and I don think you are that old
I don think the passmark has ever been 75% buddy, or at least for one hell of a long time and I don think you are that old
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MarkedMale
Guest
Well seen as I am new to this lark thought I would have my bitchin!!!!!!!!!
Surely the course @ Shawbury is just a BASIC course, it is the training teams resposibilities at Units that then need to install their units procedures into the new LAC's. If the training teams can't do this then replace them with people who can. After all every unit has its "ism's" so you can't just slate Shawburyism's.
Surely the course @ Shawbury is just a BASIC course, it is the training teams resposibilities at Units that then need to install their units procedures into the new LAC's. If the training teams can't do this then replace them with people who can. After all every unit has its "ism's" so you can't just slate Shawburyism's.