What's the future of OUR trade then?

[FOMP]

Anyone out there got any visions of already lean trade by 2010, I've got a few and they ain't pretty. Here's a few thoughts:

SAC FMDL 82% by Christmas 2005.

None Fast Trackers being allowed back into the JATCC stream.

TG 9 recruiting still down to about 40% of historical norms.

More huge promotions to Cpl.

Not pretty is it.

FOMP

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Sucks a bit at the moment. Why loads of promotions? FOM side sucks this year

Loads of Cpl slots going to SAC rank and thats mostly in the Sqn Ops environment. Not SACs fault but the experience just isnt there.

 

[Sooties]

Who gives a flying f**k shiny.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Good post sootie, someone taken your crayons?

 

[FOMP]

Sooty why don't you just crawl back to your own little playpen you muppet and go and dish out some abuse to your fellow 4 year olds, even better go and apply for redundancy and do us all a favour.

FOMZ

I hear a rumour that all those SACs/Cpls that we were expecting back into terminal units when WD closes are in fact now going to Swanwick! So the situation isn't going to get better anytime soon. We tried to get the Sqns to give up Cpl posts about 18 months ago but even though the trade sponsor wrote to Stn Cdrs there was no teeth in it because they are digital posts, belong to the Sqn Cdrs and HQ 3 Gp did not have the power or authority to enforce their "request" for the Cpls. Result- hardly any cpl posts given up. We are heading into a manning black hole with the only light in the tunnel being the train coming in the opposite direction about to smack us in the face.

Possible solution........... split the trade, Flight OPERATIONS assistants become exactly that, they work in Ops and Sqn Ops. Re-invent (the wheel) Assistant Air Traffic Controllers then work in Control Towers and ATCRUS. These AATCs will all be given the aptitude test BEFORE they sign up and are groomed for the JATCC for 5 years before they do the course. If they are above average make them Cpls after 3 years (like we do now anyway) so they can do the caravan and demonstrate how really good they are and give them some responsibility to show leadership skills. Then when they have passed the course they can become proper SNCO Sgts and do the sort of things the PFOM s in the towers do now (in fact HQ 3 GP are already thinking along the lines of prizing the PFOMs out of the towers because their SNCO controllers are cleverer more adaptable and capable individuals than a mere FOM aren't they?). There will be arguments against this as it is a bit radical and the TG9 sponsors sold the whole Fast Tracker faff to the Air Force Board 8 years ago (thanks very much Phil Roberts now MR as he left not long afterwards) then they abandoned the whole follow through programme of training and preparing them until the first 2 FTers failed the JATCC. Too late gentlemen, you reap what you sow and you certainly didn't look after your crop did you? I wonder if the Air force Board and the bean counters will listen to them a second time when they for TG9 to be revamped. Maybe AATCs and ATCOs should be merged with the Scopies (a trade that really does seem to have it's sh*t together) as their roles are and equipment are so similar now (just have a look at the Scopies deployability, equipment and methods).

Well lets let them get on with basking in their ivory towers and looking the other way when it all goes to ratsh*t. Let's have our own trade, join up with Op Spt Ops Officers (yeah I know that's another topic but surely we have some SNCO's in the Ops Rooms who can help and guide these poor lost souls back into some kind of trade leadership roles, after all lets face it ATC has ignored us for decades anyway).

What do you guys think? BTW tell your troops about this forum and lets get some views from the JRs

Flack jacket (minus plates) and plastic hat on ready for incoming (not you Sooty)

FOMP

 

[Bitburger]

The future of your trade?

The future of your trade?

Stacking maps of course.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Dont forget we stick pins in them too! Oh and draw pretty circles

 

[Bitburger]

And of course there is always the Fablon

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Good thing about using Fablon is that there is always an expert on hand to advise on your inadequacies

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Its not easy to just split the trade in two.

If you look at the course content at FOTF you will see that it is applicable to both ATC and OPS, you need all aspects of the trade knowledge in order to work both in Ops or ATC. It would never be feasable to just split the course.

How do we decide how the trade is split? Do you just say "all those in tower roles stay there and all those that are in Ops stay there"? Granted there are issues with manning and roles within the trade but I do not consider a split to be beneficial.

Personally speaking I think that the answer is a mix of direct entrant SNCO controllers, who go through the Airman Aircrew system and selection plus controllers from the old system of coming through the ranks. Forget the old problems of age, just let the guys who want to go controller earn the right to do so be it from an Ops environment or ATC.

All my tours be it ATCRU, ATC, Stn Ops, Sqn Ops have given me a massive trade knowledge. To have an understanding and expirience of all those roles is invaluable in any TG9 post.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

God bless the Aussies, they Yanks have a similar system, but how would you do it?

Its all well and good saying it can be done, tell me how?

 

[North Sea Tiger]

As someone who left the Air Force and TG9 behind me four years ago , even then the ops/atc divide was something that I found ridiculous .. Ten years ago was based at the home of the mighty hunter and was there for months before the posm even bothered to meet me .. and I was his senior SAC !! .. was working three watch and the tower assistants were on half days sometimes cos there were so many !! .. our SAOC did his best but things didnt change.

Felt even back then that splitting the trade was the way to go and right up until the day I left I felt that all the experience I had gained meant little and on occasion I was even told that I needed some "tower time" to get promoted. Ops Assistants I have always felt were undervalued generally within TG9 .. granted this may have been down to my experiences but looking back I am glad that out of 13 years I only spent one in a tower.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I understand what you are saying but it would still be realy difficult to split the trade. There are too many commonalities.

Ops world is far better than ATC though, hated being a tea-boy. Seems like after completing JATCC some get TW&T implant in your brain. Loads of top guys in the controlling stream but loads of ar$e wipes too

 

[FOMP]

SSH

Have you had a close look at the FOTF course content recently or spoken to an Ops FOM who is responsible for training LACs in Ops. The FOTF course is and always has been very biased towards ATC matters, I'm hoping that the widely touted re-vamp of the course has some serious new content regarding M-ALFENS/MFMIS, NOTAMs, Flight Following, RASDA, CFMUs & Messaging, TAFs, NATS Website usage, AIS........ and much more. I'm talking about a seperate trade and training course not AATC and FOAs doing the same course. I'm sure that the Flight Ops School could come up with a course with the correct content for it's own assistants.

Start splitting the trade by working out what the split numbers and locations would be (shouldn't take long). Then ask the troops what they want to do, ATC or Ops? You never know the numbers might be somewhere near matching (after all they did something similar recently to find out who wanted to be controllers didn't they), where there's a will there's a way.

The direct entry idea is a none starter, MATO tried it already 8 years ago. It was the prefered option before they came up with the cunning plan of Fast Trackers. The Air Force Board (read Silver Winged Master Race) killed it as they felt the only people with a high enough calibre to be direct entry SNCOs could only be aircrew type chappies (met any new plastic aircrew recently, I have, bunch of irresponsible Kno*s). So I'm afraid the Air Traffic Branch have to "grow their own" as it were.

Lets split, let ATC get on with civilianising FTSs, amalgamating with Fighter Controllers or whatever their plan to fight off extinction is and lets stop them from using us as a reason for not doing one of the former. FOMs and Operations assitants can make it on our own without ATC, we normally do. Just a case in point, look at all the Guchi training the ATC CMRS candidates got for their post TELIC deployments (they still managed to cock it up by splitting up their "trained" teams though). Then ask what training the Ops guys got prior to deploying to Basrah (some of them didn't even get a mine awareness course) and did anyone in the ATC world give a monkeys? No.

I rest my case

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Believe me FOMP when I say I understand the basic course and what is produced. However, what your asking is better taught on the job, there are too many fiddly things to try and instruct when the course is completely IT based as it seems your idea would be. Give them the basics and get on with it at unit level. You cannot teach in an 8 week course that what you could teach yourself on a few days shifts at a new unit. To have two courses for similar trades would be too expensive. ATC and OPS both need RASDA, MFMIS, TAFs and CFMU messaging as much as the others, just not practical.

As for direct entrants, the board are possibly losing out on good calibre people who would make excellent controllers. How many potential aircrew guys cant go aircrew because of height, leg length, vison etc? I am sure they would make excellent SNCO controllers, the RAF is tapping the wrong sources

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Is all the training that you are refering to all IT based?

 

[Standards]

One problem in our trade is that with no civilian qualification to allow us to take a post in the civilian sector there is no need for people to leave. This means that our trade seems to be unique in that the majority of SNCO's have served past their 22 year point and stay in until they are 55 years old. This creates a huge bottle neck in the promotion structure as people can get promoted to Cpl realtively quickly and then skid to a halt as there is nowhere to go until a pensionable SNCO's takes the brave step of retiring or they have died.

Now of course all of these old farts will say that the RAF is desperate for the experience that they hold. Be honest though, you've been doing the job for so long you bloody well should be experienced. And sitting in an office watering plants at a Unit that you have been at for 5 plus years just doesn't count I am afraid.

Look around your workplace and see how many SNCO's have been in less than 22 years (lets say 16 years shall we, to give high fliers a chance) and work out what your own chances are of getting to the position of FOM with enough time to then progress to FS before YOUR 22 year point.

Standards!

 

[FOMP]

Standards

I suppose you are right in some respects, but I don't think there are too many FOMs out there "watering plants " at the moment with a 82% FMDL at SAC forecast...ouch. The 5 year tours might also be coming to an end, just look at what they did to a WO FOM at Brize recently, the old days of being sent where PMA wanted you to go and your postings dream sheet being exactly that, are coming back IMHO. Maybe if they p*ss off enough WOs off by moving them around a bit then they might PVR and create some promotion slots for the rest of us.

Don't forget those crusty old FOMs who have served more than 22 years have certainly had some of the rough as well as some smooth, everything seems to go round in circles...rapid promotion....followed by slow promotion. most of which was caused by an ever changing trade structure and policy, there's bound to be another change coming soon. In the mean time us "old timers" had better check our brake pipes on our bath chairs before we set off, just in case someone tries to create some promotion possibilities!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

What you have to remeber is that the instructors especially at JNCO level are all volunteers. Volunteers always go first.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Thats what I am saying, they are there because they volunteered not because they are the best.

Most of the people that knock them have never considered the job to be honest