Welcome to Trade group 7

[Deleted member 777]

So the word is out....

3 phase merger starting Apr 11.

Introduction of FTT (Further Trade Training)1 and 2 for promotion to Cpl and Sgt (return of the promex in old money). All done on line and modular.

The first promotion board you need to be FTT qualified by in 2012.

3 career streams at SNCO level: ABM, ASM and FOM - everyone else will be interchangable, but will require PET if moving across to a scopie role.

ATCA's all used for JATCC by 2014.

New payband? don't hold your breath! DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[FOMDude]

Is that gen, if so where did you get the info?

 

[FOMz]

I heard very similar as well yesterday.

 

[HotspurIDO]

Curiouser and curiouser, still nothing announced our side of the house with the grown ups being very tight lipped.

The FTT thing isn't too bad to be honest, it separates the wheat from the chaff ... those that WANT to get on need to pull their fingers out and study for the exams, gone are the days of the old sweats getting picked up eventually. We've had it a few years now, and it keeps being refined. It's modular and I've heard rumours that instead of the one exam covering all modules there will be one modular exam per month.

Streaming ABM/ASM/FOM from 3 stripes onward ... hmm, at present ABM and ASM are pretty interchangeable (eg I'm an ASM qualified in an ABM role, but next tour could be to ASM or ABM). Will that change? I can't wait to be able to ask the question, As an existing ABM/ASM will I be able to go for a FOM job? I expect not. Tho I dont imagine that there would be many FOMs out there who'd want to come over to the dark side?

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Curiouser and curiouser, still nothing announced our side of the house with the grown ups being very tight lipped.

The FTT thing isn't too bad to be honest, it separates the wheat from the chaff ... those that WANT to get on need to pull their fingers out and study for the exams, gone are the days of the old sweats getting picked up eventually. We've had it a few years now, and it keeps being refined. It's modular and I've heard rumours that instead of the one exam covering all modules there will be one modular exam per month.

Streaming ABM/ASM/FOM from 3 stripes onward ... hmm, at present ABM and ASM are pretty interchangeable (eg I'm an ASM qualified in an ABM role, but next tour could be to ASM or ABM). Will that change? I can't wait to be able to ask the question, As an existing ABM/ASM will I be able to go for a FOM job? I expect not. Tho I dont imagine that there would be many FOMs out there who'd want to come over to the dark side?

Bit of PET then why not? Be interesting to see how the promotion boards will be at Sgt - FS.

Pay band are you?

 

[HotspurIDO]

Bit of PET then why not? Be interesting to see how the promotion boards will be at Sgt - FS.

Pay band are you?

High, til the crown then drop to low, back to high upon tate & lyle.

 

[FOMz]

I thought scopie JR's were all lower pay band?

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

That mean all FOMs will go up to High?

 

[HotspurIDO]

Sorry FOMz, I was talking SNCO upwards. You're right, the JRs are low.

SSH - Hope springs eternal?! In the current climate I wouldn't be at all surprised if we mark time while you catch up. Who knows, maybe the different streams will be different paybands?

I'm all for a bit of cross pollenation to be honest, I'm sure that both trades have plenty to bring to the party. Hell, I love air traffickers - I married one! Interesting times, it seems the long rumoured rumour that we all thought would never happen is indeed happening.

Seeing as we're getting all cosy, I know that NotanIDOyet has offered in the past ... but if anyone fancies a visit to come see what we do then by all means get in touch.

 

[sooms]

So correct me if I'm wrong..

ASM/ ABM on higher payband, FOM on lower.

Only able to swap over after FT.- Will everyone in the TG9 get a place on crossover training?

Will SGT ASM/ABM who crossover to a SGT FOM post go to lower payband? Think not.

Will SGT FOM who completes FT go to higher payband?

What happens if you have a Sgt ASM in a FOM Role and a Sgt FOM in the same office doing the same job, one on higher, one on lower- not devisive at all!

Don't make much sense to me!

 

[gordon bennett]

thats cleared that up Sooms ....

I'm all in favour of a swift move to the higher pay band !

 

[FOMz]

and hell will freeze over before that happens GB!!!!

But now we've chinned off the cnutrollers to their own (spineless) spine.... who knows! DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

So correct me if I'm wrong..

ASM/ ABM on higher payband, FOM on lower.

Only able to swap over after FT.- Will everyone in the TG9 get a place on crossover training?

Will SGT ASM/ABM who crossover to a SGT FOM post go to lower payband? Think not.

Will SGT FOM who completes FT go to higher payband?

What happens if you have a Sgt ASM in a FOM Role and a Sgt FOM in the same office doing the same job, one on higher, one on lower- not devisive at all!

Don't make much sense to me!

There is no FT for Sgt FOM, you are already qualified other than the PET.

Just heard on the grapevine that there is a pay freeze on changing bands for the forseable future so I would suggest that all TG7 will be low band (more good news for the TG12 Sgts!)

The worry at the moment is that SNCOs will be pidgeonholed in their existing roles rather than offering the broadened career development that some in the ABM world are after.

The other issue is that ABM is an officer thing at the moment. ACOS BM has stated that he wants to see a return to a 60:40 SNCO to officer ration so will ABM SNCOs be able to take what are currently SO2/3 level jobs? I think not.

I cannot see the desk being over run with SNCO TG9 volunteers for ABM posts in the short term - quite how streaming will work I don't know, the SABM currently run a streaming course for potential Identification Officers but I don't think that this is the suitable vehicle for this kind of streaming.

Ultimately this may help if you are an SAC or Cpl TG9/12 but I fear the SNCO cadre may end up getting shafted in the rear!

As HotspurIDO has said above, we are both happy to host some visits to the Secret Northumbrian oasis for anyone wanting to find out a bit more about TG12, pm me for more details and I will try and sort it out for you.

 

[HotspurIDO]

The pay band question may well be academic post SDSR anyway. One things for sure, if this amalgamation was going to cost a single penny it wouldn't happen.

You blokes have had a couple of days to get your heads around this now, what's the initial thoughts? Will anything REALLY change from three stripes up or will we purely have a new name. Exciting times for the JRs I guess, once yours get used to the FTT idea (we monked and moaned too when it came in). Obviously there'll be folk on the 12 side licking their lips at the prospect of new postings. What about the 9 side? Is the prospect of Air Defence, Mil Task 2.2, Air Land Integration and Joint Ops etc something that some of you will be chomping at the bit to get into? It's a genuine question, it floats my boat but I've always felt a bit geekish about it and could never tell if it would hold the same appeal to someone without a 12 background.

One thing's for sure ... we could do with a big 'getting to know you' social bash.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

...One thing's for sure ... we could do with a big 'getting to know you' social bash.

Off TopicYou've got to know quite enough about TG9!!

 

[FOMz]

Everyone is thinking short term here. Will the SNCO status quo change over night? No

You need to be thinking 5 - 10 years down the line before you see a fully intergrated FOAM trade (Flight Operations and Airspace Managers - I just made that up, good 'innit!)

An ABM today will still be an ABM next year, a FOM today will still be a FOM next year.

The options to jump across may well be there, but I can only really see ASM's wanting to jump this way tbh.

It won't be until the FOAAs (Flight Operations and Airspace Assistants - I just made that up as well, good 'innit!) start to work up through JNCO onto SNCO rank that you'll see full intergration. At that point most FOAMs will be on the verge of leaving anyway at timex.....

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Everyone is thinking short term here. Will the SNCO status quo change over night? No

You need to be thinking 5 - 10 years down the line before you see a fully intergrated FOAM trade (Flight Operations and Airspace Managers - I just made that up, good 'innit!)

An ABM today will still be an ABM next year, a FOM today will still be a FOM next year.

The options to jump across may well be there, but I can only really see ASM's wanting to jump this way tbh.

It won't be until the FOAAs (Flight Operations and Airspace Assistants - I just made that up as well, good 'innit!) start to work up through JNCO onto SNCO rank that you'll see full intergration. At that point most FOAMs will be on the verge of leaving anyway at timex.....

You say that the status quo wont change overnight but it should be theoretically possible for an SNCO to be posted cross-trade boundaries from Apr 11. Anyone promoted to Sgt next year should also possibly be prepared for a different posting than they would expect now.

I would be willing to be transferred to a new Flight ops Awareness Trained/Air Space Specialist (FAT ASS) trade!

 

[FOMz]

Off Topic

I would be willing to be transferred to a new Flight ops Awareness Trained/Air Space Specialist (FAT ASS) trade!

From what I hear - you've been in that trade since you joined up.....


Off Topic

 

[Hmmmm]

You blokes have had a couple of days to get your heads around this now, what's the initial thoughts? Will anything REALLY change from three stripes up or will we purely have a new name. Exciting times for the JRs I guess, once yours get used to the FTT idea (we monked and moaned too when it came in). Obviously there'll be folk on the 12 side licking their lips at the prospect of new postings. What about the 9 side? Is the prospect of Air Defence, Mil Task 2.2, Air Land Integration and Joint Ops etc something that some of you will be chomping at the bit to get into? It's a genuine question, it floats my boat but I've always felt a bit geekish about it and could never tell if it would hold the same appeal to someone without a 12 background.

One thing's for sure ... we could do with a big 'getting to know you' social bash.

Hi Hotspur, I'm not sure TG9 will have a massive issue getting into MT2.2 etc. The majority of the TG has had exposure to the ops side of things for a long ime; it is just the 'thoroughbred' ATC assistants who will have a bit of a mountain to climb.

Having left the Service a few years back, I welcome the merger. I think it is a win for the RAF as, having worked with both TG9 & TG12 I have found these individuals to be amongst the very best.

 

[HotspurIDO]

Hi Hotspur, I'm not sure TG9 will have a massive issue getting into MT2.2 etc. The majority of the TG has had exposure to the ops side of things for a long ime; it is just the 'thoroughbred' ATC assistants who will have a bit of a mountain to climb.

Which is heartening to hear, I'll be the first to admit that although I've had some exposure to TG9 I'm pretty ignorant to what they've gotten into over the past few years. When I mention those things I dont mean to come over at all disrespectful to my FOM colleagues, I don't consider my view of what has traditionally been their role any less than what we've been up to, I'm just trying to get a feel for how big the gulf is between the two skillsets (if there's a gulf at all). I'm sure that we'll all discover an awful lot of commonality between the two trades that we've not considered before. Which is no doubt why we have finally found ourselves merging. These are interesting times, and I relish any fresh challenges they bring. I do have reservations about the differentiation between ASM and ABM on 'our' side of the house but that's a scopie thing.