The 'new' JATCC graduate....

[The Controller]

Are CATCS / ARTS Instructors doing their jobs properly or not? Are you (at the Terminal / Area Units) getting the right 'product'? If not why not....and what needs changing?



20 seconds each....and...discuss

 

[You Can Call Me Al]

What needs changing?

What needs changing?

Mmmmm.

1. Students' nappies.

2. Instructors with agendas.

3. PC, left-wing, commie, pinko attitudes (from the 'establishment').

4. My bag.

(Well - you asked... )

 

[HilstonPols]

If you asked Da Vinci to create "The Last Supper" using a soggy newspaper and a blunt pencil you would get the same result.

!!!NO!!! I am not suggesting that CATCS instructors are that good, rather they get crap raw materials and inadequate recources.

However, the "product" can't be that bad. If it were then there would be bits of metal/plastic all over the place and less pilts.


Hmmm less pilots, now theres an idea.

 

[insideinfoman]

!!!NO!!! I am not suggesting that CATCS instructors are that good, rather they get crap raw materials and inadequate recources.

You GET inadequate resourse, MY A#@E, I wish we had your funding for a year then maybe we could get rid of crappy Local Sim with the lights on the board to show an a/c flying the circuit and have a super duper Vis Sim like you had!!!!!

But hey we do alright!!!

I think it's the raw materials that need looking at 3yr SAC's NO experience and no supervisory roles (Yes, it does make a difference in my humble opion)

 

[HilstonPols]

insideinfoman;

totally agree with the comment about sims. IMHO they are all in desperate need of upgrade, most notably the FOTF sim and the laughable ACT sims. My comment about resources was aimed firmly at all of CATCS. I think throughout the wing we suffer, as many others do, from inadequate resources.

As to the 3 year SACs, good point. Unfortuneatly it is down to us all to try and rectify a situation that none of us agree with. Some of the FT SNCOs we see are high quality, however it is true that the vast majority lack experience and supervisory skills. Maybe it is time we looked at having a more extensive TMT2 type course for the JATCC SNCOs? Currently JATCC stands as their TMT2 and there is no flex in the program to introduce more supervisory training. As I have alluded to on other posts , I think that the RAF is asking too much of young and keen JATCC grads. No shocks there of course but following on, we all as current SNCOs (whatever our present job) must do what we can to resolve this issue.

Anyway I am beginnign to preach and that is unfair. Merry Christmas to you all.

 

[insideinfoman]

The simple answer is to delay their arrival at ther units for 2 wks and make them do a proper TMT2 course. The other option is to send them to their units and then bring them back when they've got the relevant tickets, just slip it onto the end of their JMLC no different to the rest of us. Until they get their tickets they are only Acting Sgts anyway so put them into the towers and the SNCO's already in post mentor them and make sure that they have some small unimportant supervisory role, BUT not incharge or 2i/c of any flights within ATC until they have done all their courses.

Hopefully this would mean that they then gain some experience and respect form the JNCO's and OR's in the towers and Ops room because from my point of view I have no respect for any of them and they will get little until they gain my total trust and that includes all the people I have trained over the years.

Now am I talking a load of crap or does it make sense? Because to me and others it what we would like to see.

 

[The Controller]

InsideInfoMan..

Now am I talking a load of crap or does it make sense

...Yes you are...and Yes it does!

 

[HilstonPols]

Alot of sense, basically as I was saying they need a TMT2.

The acting part and mentoring is also very important.

 

[The Controller]

They could also speed up the time that they attend IMLC - In some cases its up to 18 months after passing JATCC!!! Not an ideal situation at all. How can you expect someone to operate as a SNCO if they haven't been given the basic tools to use? After 18 months people WILL have slipped into what they think is required rather than what is.

Spot on sentiments 'The Fomz'...spot on!

Just help out an old man here....is the only reason for the 'new' SNCOs not to attend ILMC before they attend JATCC....in case of failure????

 

[You Can Call Me Al]

The root of the problem is undoubtedly the horrendous mismanagement from 3Gp. Various knee-jerk tinkerings in order to answer 'service needs' have altered the JATCC concept (from a SNCO point of view) out of all recognition. How about this for an idea:

1. Do about 5-8 years as an assistant
2. Subject to performance, promotion to Cpl and recommendation for further promotion
3. Selected for JATCC

Attendance at JATCC should only be after meaningful aptitude assessment - possibly even an interview or similar at the school. Obciously we must continue with assessment prior to attestation, but re-assess at the appropriate time; people change - normally for the better in terms of aptitude and experience. The old chestnut about JATCC becoming more difficult as one gets older is a red herring - you've either got the aptitude or you haven't. If you can't learn the job after a certain age how the hell can you control anyway after that age? (DON'T ANSWER THAT!)

 

[The Controller]

You Can Call Me Al
Blimey! It's not often you find an old man (of ever-deteriorating mind and body) talking lucidly...and with some degree of knowledge!!! However....you managed to do it ...although, there is something strangely familiar about points 1, 2 & 3...now what is it???

Did you know an anagram of your 'nickname' is.....

Anal Yule Cam Col

You cannot begin to apprehend just how bored I am

PS. What are Jeans?? Are they 'collectively' known as Denim? I don't have any!

 

[HilstonPols]

The reason for not sending people on IMLC before JATCC is all down to money. The RAF is not prepared to "risk" the IMLC on a potential JATCC failure. Sending them before will never happen, imo, but I agree that the situation needs addressing. IMLC dates for JATCC grads will always be 12months + as the new Acting Sgts have to endorse in the field before an IMLC date is even requested.

I agree with YCCMA we, the trade, should have a role in apptitude assessment and the selection process. However, if you look at what are supposed to be the cream of the crop, those remaining scare me.

How about those personnel selected for JATCC or "knocking on the door" go to CATCS for a 2 week period of apptitude and attitude assessment. Surely the personnel at CATCS are in a far better position to say whether someone has the skills required to have a fair crack at JATCC. The current system of assessment is often left, I am led to believe, to the individuals Flt Cmdr. As most units are under strength this is very often a fairly recent JATCC grad making this crucial assessment. Of course this opens up another can or worms because the vast majority, if not all, are not in a postion to allow a Cpl or SAC have 2 weeks away from thier primary duty.

As to "Jeans" they are indeed Denim and can often be seen worn by members of popular Beat Combos such as the Rolling Stones. Although I am sure that other youths wear them also.

 

[The Controller]

popular Beat Combos such as the Rolling Stones

AHhh! The old popular, duo-beat combos of yeteryear banging out ever popular tunes from the hit parade. But who are these 'Rolling Stones'???

 

[insideinfoman]

The root of the problem is undoubtedly the horrendous mismanagement from 3Gp. Various knee-jerk tinkerings in order to answer 'service needs' have altered the JATCC concept (from a SNCO point of view) out of all recognition.

Sorry but how can you say that? It probably has nothing to do with 3Gp (unless of course you've been responsible of selection in the passed), it's all down to PMA, surely. If we need to look at anything as has already been said is to look at how they are assessed for controlling duties.

How can a SATCO at a busy airfirld know all the TG9 people in order to make an honest assessment of their controlling abilities? It can't be done!!

So how do we do it? I'm sorry but I certainly don't have the answer BUT I do think that an assessment at CATCS would help matters and get rid of the deadwood before they start on JATCC.

It's the same as how do we assess if anybody has controller abilities? Again no answers but I have thought about this long and hard over the years. What about the trainees that grad from FOTF come down to CATCS and get a coule of days basic theory on radar and controlling and then they go in BRST (or whatever it is these days) and sit with an instructor who gives them blips to move around the radar, they increase the amount of tracks making it progressively harder until they break and then they can assess their abilities. From there they go of to unit, whether it be an Ops room or ATC it matters not because after 18mths/2yrs they can then be moved in to the correct career path.

The assessment is done by the experts and yes I do think you guys are the experts at what you do and can tell immediately if someone has the aptitude, rather than sent them to Cranwell before they join up. Mmmm me thinks its wheel turning again very slightly.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

if they went down the airman aircrew side of stuff, then there is the oportunity to recruit those guys not eligible for flying duties due to medical reasons. Some good quality guys missing out.

Must admit it fooked me off when we had guys come through TTF who had failed the airman aircrew school for man managment abilities (or lack of) who were offered slots as fast track SNCO. Why should we get them cast offs.

Send the feckers through the same hoops that the airman aircrew and officers have to jump through. let them serve as assistants, not only ATC but on squadrons and station ops, give them a good grounding.

Back to the beer, hate wetherspoons as the beer is far too cheap

edited to say that the Navy grading system at Yeovilton is an awesome way of seeing if someone has controlling abilities

I remember a SNCO controller doing TMT2 at Shawbury and it wasnt geared correctly so I do believe it got binned. The guy concerned was an ex TTF instructor (top geezer he was too), all it needs doing is tailoring correctly

 

[Hmmmm]

Well blow me over, a couple of posts in and we get the FOM side of the house slagging-off the fast track system.

As an air traffiker, answering an air traffic question, I think that on the whole we get a reasonable 'product' from CATCS. Of course we would like a better grounded and more confident individual but, once we recognise that units have a significant general training responsibility at unit, then I think we are doing fine.

 

[You Can Call Me Al]

Must admit it fooked me off when we had guys come through TTF who had failed the airman aircrew school for man managment abilities (or lack of) who were offered slots as fast track SNCO. Why should we get them cast offs.

SirSalty - they weren't offered slots as fast track SNCO - they were offered FOA(ATC) and then may have gained promotion at a later date if recommended etc. Don't twist facts to fit your biased arguments.

Sorry but how can you say that? It probably has nothing to do with 3Gp (unless of course you've been responsible of selection in the passed), it's all down to PMA, surely. If we need to look at anything as has already been said is to look at how they are assessed for controlling duties.

insideinfoman - your usual standard of post! If you are not in possession of any factual information don't pontificate. The organisation and structure of the trade is dictated by the trade sponsor, not PMA.

 

[insideinfoman]

YCCMA - As usual you're straight in slaggling us off again. If you read my post and in the 3rd paragraph I did say (and I'll put it in capitals for you so you are able to see it)

I'M SORRY BUT I CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER. I stand by what I've written and it is down to the Trade to sort out where the controlling side is going and the Fast-track system.

Again YOU have failed to back up what you've written, so come on tell all we are waiting!

And I can do whatever I like, within reason, on this site. The whole idea is to stimulate discussion and NOT in your case try to put everyone down.

WHAT IS IT WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!

Surely we are trying to get answers and you are doing nothing. IF I want to pontificate, then I can. Actually it's the promotion boards that promote the guys and girls NOT the Trade Sponser they say what they want and nothing more but it's up to what is written by the RO's that get people promoted or not as the case may be!!!!!!

I give my opion, obviously you don't like it, thats your problem not mine.
Or is it that you've written assessments in the past and seen SAC's get promoted with a lower recommendation and you don't like it? Who Knows but until you get off your high horse and take what you see at face value instead of slagging everyone off, then maybe people on this forum would be willing to come back on and post!!!!!!!

Am I annoyed at you? Yes and No. Yes because of what I've already put and No because it's whats this site is all about. Freedom of Speech.

And lastly, I know a lot more than I let on about the ways of the Trade on both sides, like I'm sure a lot of us do but we decide to put what little snip its we want without trying to make ourselves look too big!!!

PS Have a good New Year

 

[You Can Call Me Al]

Inside etc; you obviously couldn't read my post for the red mist! I was merely pointing-out that the current state of the trade is nothing whatever to do with PMA. THE ORGANISATION AND STRUCTURE OF THE TRADE IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE TRADE SPONSOR. (I can type with caps lock on as well!) Whatever the requirements of the trade might be are dictated by them and it is then up to PMA to follow a strict remit with regard to the promotion (or not) of individuals. I don't think that I

have failed to back up what you've written

but in case you still think that, re-read my posts. I'm sorry if you think I'm 'SLAGGLING' - it really wasn't my intention!
Thank-you for your wishes for the new year, sincerely reciprocated I'm sure.

The Controller - continuing the anagram theme; NOT RECTOR, HELL!

 

[The Controller]

The Controller - continuing the anagram theme; NOT RECTOR, HELL!

Oh AL!!! I much prefer...... 'Coherent Troll'

PS. InsideInfoMan...

Thank-you for your wishes for the new year, sincerely reciprocated I'm sure

rest assured mate ....this is genuinely the friendliest he's been for years!!!