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The Flight Operations Branch

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Per Adua Ad PVR

Guest
No you don't understand, it's not a difficult concept!

Run along and make the tea like a good little Ops Officer, I am trying to sort the bloody prog out for the morning.

You can have the remote for the TV tonight too and I'll wake you at 0630 before SLOPS gets in............I'm not changing your nappy though! :eek:
 
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Per Adua Ad PVR

Guest
And leave an Ops Officer in charge of the Station for the night?

That's worse than when the aircrew did your job, a least we had some good 'pull up a sandbag' flying stories from them to while away the night shifts, happy days.

I suppose you could tell us all about that time the Ops Sim at Shawbury ran out of tea and the kettle broke. :D
 
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izitme

Guest
I happen to know that the FOTS Simulator (if you can call it that) is the only one in existance that has a fully functioningg coffee machine in it - my god its a tough life
 
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Fenella

Guest
My apologies Ops Officer. I have been away on a course and did not see your message. I will quantify the no one wants to know about us statement as you requested, and a few other things.

As you will no doubt know, being the all round good chap you appear to be, the TG9 review has just been completed.You are no doubt aware that there is a 2 stream element to TG9, ATC and FOM. Without giving too much away, it would appear that the non ATC element of TG9 will continue to be looked after by a Wg Cdr ATC chap. The equally senior elements of the Flt Ops branch turned down the offer of looking after their non commissioned counterparts. I am well aware of the 'big picture', there may have been many valid reasons for them not to take us on. Who knows.

As for you guys learning your trade (or specialisation), you are right and you need time to gain experience, just like we have. However, there seems to be an awful lot of your branch that will not take on any advice. I am also not arrogant enough to claim that I know everything about ops because I don't. But having worked for a few Flt Ops branch, one thing sticks out like a dogs wotsit, a lot of your guys do believe you know better and it's your way or the highway! Many of us and many Aircrew have experienced this so you cannot say that it is not true.

Also, no one has ever said that FOM's are better managers and leaders than Flt Ops officers. However, it is said that management and leadership are skills that are possessed by many people and experience brings those skills to the fore. There are very few instant 'fantastic' leaders and managers. I would challenge anyone who tells me that a first tourist 20 year old JO can manage and lead a team of tradesmen better than a FOM in an Opereational environment. RAFC Cranwell and pine pole exercises aside.

As for the unit that has had a cull of Flt Ops Officers. They got rid of 3 of the 5 Flt Ops officers on the unit because"I have Sgt's who can do the job better" the words of another Senior chappie!!

I can see why you feel it is open season on you guys but it is not. Nor does anyone want to sling mud. I can see that it is sad for the ones who really want to make a difference and an impact, especially as you are not going beyond 16 years. I wouldn't say that we are all bitter, but I would say that many of us are a bit disappointed that this branch does not seem to offer the non controller TG9 guys a management structure outside of ATC. Before you chaps were 'inducted' in 1997, the branch was advertised around TG9 as just that. It has not happened, but as you say, it is not your fault.

So, what did you watch on TV in the end?
 

SirSaltyHelmet

Thoroughly Nice Chap
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I am somewhat amazed that young OpsO hereto known as "the great remote holder" can watch telly from an upside-down position. I say this because he has his head so far up his own ar$e that he is seeing the world through his mouth.

Glad to see you can make one decison sir , "Whats shall we have on telly, Cant Budge, Wont Budge or Room 101?"

The later being the best place for Flt Ops :D
 
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Fenella

Guest
Those wheelies are seriously chaffing today. Vaseline is required.
 
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Per Adua Ad PVR

Guest
Don't expect a reply from "the great remote holder", he is down on the golf course after his hard night shift asleep, (no doubt followed by 4 days off to help him recover).

Hey Fenella, like your style :)
 
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oasis

Guest
Well I have been on my lovely days off and come back to bitter disappointment. Unfortunately what I thought started off as maybe a good bit of banter Im afraid its starting to look as my train set is better than yours and today im going to be the driver!! why...because..I said so..

I thought the Ops officer could at least put a valid opinion about his branch but its starting to look like the remote is more important. Mind you if some sgt hadnt bothered his arse to get the tele he wouldnt have a remote to supposedly lord it over.

Luckily I know he's really not like that and if he turned out to be then it would be a very quiet ops room....for him

Maybe if we stuck together something may be done for the ops side.

I always preferred the arguments between the tower myself....now they are mostly up their own arse... :eek:
 
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I wouldn't bother with the officer. During my time as a DEOC at Lyneham my vote goes to the lower desks. The SACs and Cpls were disappearing up their a***s, day and night. The flying program would not have existed without these guys.

Whilst the DOC was having his herbal tea this lot were talking to us techies and getting the ball rolling. Promote this guys.
 
A

Arseendcharlie

Guest
Ho Hum! My favourite topic this and along with the mis management of RAF Ops Staff careers by the TG9 mafia, the primary reason why I PVR'd to progress my aviation career in civvy street.

A previous OC FOTS (*********) openly declared his reluctance to recruit from TG9 preferring instead to recruit from the aircrew world. To quote him directly from one of our conversations he quipped that he would far prefer to commission a MR 'Siggie' with 9000hrs in the back of a dimsod than a highly experienced FOM as in his opinion he had concluded that TG9 candidates tended to act like assistants and what he wanted was officers. I felt that some of the early TG9 graduates from FOTS had badly let the side down and effectively closed the door for others for a while.

Sadly I could not disagree with his sentiments, it seems that much of the whinging and whining from TG9 pers on this thread appears to come from people with an axe to grind and a word of caution to you gentlemen/ladies, you're not that good either. In defence of that statement I myself realised, when I was promoted to Sgt, that my ops knowledge and skills was rather basic and not appropriate for a SNCO. Yes I could lead, prioritise, think laterally, multitask yadda yadda yadda but my aviation technical knowledge was simply not up to scratch, and believe me when I say I was VERY knowledgeable. so I went out and enrolled on the JAA ICAO Ops Officer/Flight Dispatcher Licence course which has provided me with the enhanced knowledge I sought. For TG9 pers sadly, as the Ops specialisation is joined at the hip to the ATC filth, you will never receive the training that you need for your job at higher level as all the emphasis on training and career development remains with the controlling side of the trade. I did recommend various suggestions for Ops pers in the last TG9 review but I doubt any of it has been taken on board.

How many of you can hand on heart read and understand synoptic charts, SIDS and STARS and make informed decisions from them if you need to replan a schedule to an unfamiliar airfield. Do you understand aircraft systems and theory of flight, can you navigate and route plan so that you will safely deposit your aircraft at it's destination, - no of course you can't because you haven't been trained! There is a lot more to Flight Ops than sitting in Stn Ops filing flt plans on ALFENS, updating airborne times, issuing PPRs, booking diversion airfields and so on. In the RAF you are never in a position to make an operational decision you merely act out other peoples instructions.

Returning to the origional point, Flt Ops as a branch is currently laughable, it lacks direction, training and ethos. Humility too I think. At no point since it's inception did I encounter a commissioned OpsO who I viewed as competent, undoubtedly nice people but as operators 'kin useless and unwilling in the main to take guidance from the people with experience, but I will caveat that statement by saying that the majority of OpsO's were re-branchees that brought across a lot of baggage. Before my departure from Aunty Betty's employ my experience of the Abo OpsO's was in the main very posititve but many were very dissillusioned and believed they had been sold a pup. My last tour in the Service was on a FJ Sqn and I resisted having an OpsO on the Sqn, although other sqn's weakened thankfully mine did not, preferring instead to listen and consider my reasoned arguments. They concluded like me that there was no place for a commissioned OpsO as I would do the job far better and was cheaper. However a sister sqn took one on board, nice girl but effectively jobless, she got sqn secondary duty crap the aircrew didn't want.

Furthermore, Flt Ops, being part of the Ops Spt Branch are in competetion with Feds, ATC, Fighter Control, Regt and Int for Sqn Ldr slots and funny old thing there are a lot of SLOPS posts filled with ATC, FC and Regt officers. Consequently a lot of these people now regard SLOPS posts as part of their career entitlement. With that kind of interference what chance does Flt Ops actually have.

At first I was the biggest fan of Flt Ops, at last a chance of a defined career structure and a pop at a commission if appropriate. Sadly through consecutive mis-management, poor standard of recruit and an insufficient training course - and don't tell me that a 14 week course which is actually 9 with 5 weeks of 'bonding' trips and jollies to Ops rooms various is up to the job 'cos it ain't!- this cracking opportunity to think laterally and provide the service with ops specialists has been allowed to whither, and the ATC filth have not helped at all.

Since arriving in civvy strasse the one thing that comes across loud and clear is the playing field is far more level, your core competencies are what matters and I know of plenty of ex RAF types who are unable to find worthwhile well paid employment as it is viewed that their skill set is insufficient. RAF Ops is not all that it's cracked up to be. I will be honest, since leaving the RAF only now do I believe that I am starting to learn, I now work for a cargo airline as an ops controller doing the job I should have been doing in the RAF.


Moderated by SSH.. No names please short fella
 
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SirSaltyHelmet

Thoroughly Nice Chap
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Arseendcharlie,


The role of Ops Officer / FOM and that of a Flight Dispatcher are completely different, the only comparison is the flying program and problems associated with it.

In all your posts on PPRUNE and now on here you show how bitter and twisted you still are. You may be very knowledgeable my learned friend, but knowledge does not always equate to application.

You will always be a steward in my eyes, doesnt matter what qualifications you now have!

The only Opsy (sorry Ex Opsy) who had a valid tea making qualification!


More tea vicar?

Edited for spangle spelling!
 
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S

Skids!

Guest
He He He

He He He

This is all getting out of hand (or getting even funnier?!?!?)

Everyone knows what OpsO's are like, they seem to just enjoy proving everyone's right in what they say.

Have fun
 
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Per Adua Ad PVR

Guest
Flt Ops as a branch is currently laughable, it lacks direction, training and ethos. Humility too I think. At no point since it's inception did I encounter a commissioned OpsO who I viewed as competent, undoubtedly nice people but as operators 'kin useless and unwilling in the main to take guidance from the people with experience, but I will caveat that statement by saying that the majority of OpsO's were re-branchees that brought across a lot of baggage.

Arseendcharlie hits the nail on the head with this statement.

RAF Ops folk- sometimes the truth hurts :eek:
 
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oasis

Guest
Personally I know many sgts who can understand SIDs STARS etc. I can jetplan/flightplan all round the world including dirt strips in the back of beyond which your not allowed to know about seen as youve left.

Im not sure you can have a sweeping statement like that as ther are currently about 100 different jobs a FOM can be asked to do now.

However I know not one aircrew chappie who can flight plan mid level (or any level for that matter) around europe

I agree civvy street sounds great but there's alot more to our job than making sure that parcel gets to aunty morag on time thankyou...
 

SirSaltyHelmet

Thoroughly Nice Chap
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Oasis,

However I know not one aircrew chappie who can flight plan mid level (or any level for that matter) around europe

If this was PPRUNE you would be having eternal damnation heaped on you by the aviation master race. All the guys were I am can flightplan with no problems, very brave statement to make my young chum
 
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izitme

Guest
I wonderd how long it would take Alex to appear and play the same old record over and over again - nothing changes.

Oh and by the way I too can read SIDS/STARS/SYNOPTIC Charts and can fltpln all round the world and I havent done the wonderful course that you are always bleating on about, and I'm not an Ops Officer (I wouldnt take the cut in pay never mind the loss of respect!!)
 
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Fenella

Guest
In response to Arseendcharlie. I am not sure that anyone on this forum has ever said that they are exceptional at their job. You are always learning and when you feel that you cannot learn anymore then it is time for you to move on. I applaude your move to civvy street, very brave and I wish you luck. If people wish to stay and work in the RAF then it doesn't mean they don't have any skills sets that cannot transfer to civvy land and I certainly don't share your undertone of we are all brainless and know nothing! I am more than happy dealing with the jobs encompassed in an Ops tour and more besides and I am quite positive that this is echoed throughout TG9 from most people.

I think it is very sad that you left the RAF feeling that you learned very little of a trade that I am presuming that you worked in for 22 years. What on earth were you doing for all of that time? Maybe it is best that you did leave as you obviously would have been useless in developing the youngsters that come out of FOTF.

All the best
 
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oasis

Guest
wasnt aware I was bleating on about anything and its better than moaning your guts about everything that alot of people are on this thing. My point was different places do things differently and Im sure that I am not alone in feeling there are many FOAs FOMs who can turn their hand at anything. Oh by the way that special programme is a three day course....so hardly difficult!!

Every section has good and bad assistants, managers and officers. Get off your high horse and try and treat people for the individuals they are. Everyone has something to offer.
 
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Per Adua Ad PVR

Guest
"The great remote holder" returns after his 4 days off tending to his social life! I told you he'd be back. :p
 
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