I
izitme
Guest
The Flight Operations Branch is there a future - discuss!
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K
Karear-Kawprul
Guest
To paraphrase Mark Twain - "In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made the Flight Ops Officer Branch".
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Fenella
Guest
Fob
Fob
Well. I think these boys and girls were sold a bit of a kipper back in 97 with this branch. How do you replace krusty old aircrew on ground tours who have 100 years of flying experience on type, with people who have just got out of 3 years of Uni studying basket weaving or equally useless degrees? Or even worse, they allowed old NCO Aircrew, Ground Branch officers and any old dog handler, air stewardess or any other trade apart from TG9, to transfer to the branch as it was a quick jump up the promotion ladder for some of these people. It's a bit sad for them really. Also their credibility is low, a lot of it caused by some of the atrocious personalities that have managed to sneak through OASC, RAFC Cranwell and FOTS. Personally, I think get rid of them all and replace them with FOM's.
Sorry chaps!
Fob
Well. I think these boys and girls were sold a bit of a kipper back in 97 with this branch. How do you replace krusty old aircrew on ground tours who have 100 years of flying experience on type, with people who have just got out of 3 years of Uni studying basket weaving or equally useless degrees? Or even worse, they allowed old NCO Aircrew, Ground Branch officers and any old dog handler, air stewardess or any other trade apart from TG9, to transfer to the branch as it was a quick jump up the promotion ladder for some of these people. It's a bit sad for them really. Also their credibility is low, a lot of it caused by some of the atrocious personalities that have managed to sneak through OASC, RAFC Cranwell and FOTS. Personally, I think get rid of them all and replace them with FOM's.
Sorry chaps!
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FOMP
Guest
Fenella,
Sadly (for FOTS Officers) you're right. When the whole FOTS thing was pedalled around the bazaars in the early 90's we were told that there would be a sub structure of FOM Ops Officers to guide the little cherrubs through their first few years at terminal units thus giving the "Ops" world the perfect solution of junior officers who listened to the voice of experience from it's SNCOs. Look what happened.... arrogant little sh*ts who were the dreggs from their respective trades and re-treads (Failed Other Trades) came in, they wouldn't listen to either their trainers at Shawbury (thats if they ever did the course, loads didn't) or to us lot who were already working in the Ops Rooms and hey presto we all lose our credibility when the FOTs Officers p*ss the aircrew off with their incompetence. I hear that some Stn Cdrs are booting them out of their Ops Rooms and Sqns and replacing them with Aircrew. Ahhh the newly invented wheel arrives again!
FOTs have only themselve's to blame for whats happening to them and I think its too late for them to reverse it. I agree put a WO FOM in as Ops 1 and have a team of FOM Ops Officers who will give the Aircrew the service they deserve
Sadly (for FOTS Officers) you're right. When the whole FOTS thing was pedalled around the bazaars in the early 90's we were told that there would be a sub structure of FOM Ops Officers to guide the little cherrubs through their first few years at terminal units thus giving the "Ops" world the perfect solution of junior officers who listened to the voice of experience from it's SNCOs. Look what happened.... arrogant little sh*ts who were the dreggs from their respective trades and re-treads (Failed Other Trades) came in, they wouldn't listen to either their trainers at Shawbury (thats if they ever did the course, loads didn't) or to us lot who were already working in the Ops Rooms and hey presto we all lose our credibility when the FOTs Officers p*ss the aircrew off with their incompetence. I hear that some Stn Cdrs are booting them out of their Ops Rooms and Sqns and replacing them with Aircrew. Ahhh the newly invented wheel arrives again!
FOTs have only themselve's to blame for whats happening to them and I think its too late for them to reverse it. I agree put a WO FOM in as Ops 1 and have a team of FOM Ops Officers who will give the Aircrew the service they deserve
I
izitme
Guest
Thhe flight Ops Branch
Thhe flight Ops Branch
Well said FOMP maybe in this time of defence cutbacks and redundancies someone high up should consider binning the branch and restoring the status quo.
Thhe flight Ops Branch
Well said FOMP maybe in this time of defence cutbacks and redundancies someone high up should consider binning the branch and restoring the status quo.
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Fenella
Guest
Absolutely FOMP. The unit I was at prior to this one got rid of 3 of them because (in the words of a senior chap) "I have Sgts who can do the job better" Which is really sad for the few Flight Ops guys who actually do a good job.
If you ever go to an 'airbase in Wiltshire', ask the Aircrew what they think of the Duty Ops Controllers in the Ops room, they will shake their head in despair.
We should be looking to FOMs as 'airport managers' under a SLOPS who is aircrew of the type operated at the unit.
If you ever go to an 'airbase in Wiltshire', ask the Aircrew what they think of the Duty Ops Controllers in the Ops room, they will shake their head in despair.
We should be looking to FOMs as 'airport managers' under a SLOPS who is aircrew of the type operated at the unit.
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
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I believe that aircrew do prefer the service they get from the SNCOs, most of it is down to credibility. The idea of a SLOPS in charge with SNCO Duty Ops Controllers is worthwhile.
It will be harder to achieve a FOTSless flying sqns but would be a joy to see
It will be harder to achieve a FOTSless flying sqns but would be a joy to see
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Karear-Kawprul
Guest
Have to agree with everything that's been said so far. The officers I've worked with in the past have been short on competence and long on their own opinions of themselves. That's a big generalisation and as Fenella says there are a few good ones out there. But (let's be honest) the majority of us would trust them to sit the right way on a toilet.
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Standards
Guest
izitme said:
Never mind, is there a future? How about, is there a point?
To my knowledge, no-one has ever failed the FOTS course. Now either the instruction is really good or the course is really easy. You decide!!
Have you ever been on an OOA with one? I spent 4 months in Basrah with a total of six different FOTS Officers. Without exception they were useless. Nice blokes and all that, but it was probably no accident that the JHF boys used 3 SNCO's (FOMS and SNCO aircrew) to run their side with little or no fuss whereas fixed wing was the home of indecision and confusion.
More FOMs please.
Standards!
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Fenella
Guest
Yes I have! I had a an ex master aircrew bloke who was a complete maniac! Not only did he practically sit on all of the FOA's shoulders to ensure they switched on the computer properly, he truly believed that we were all thick! another ex master aircrew guy accused me of chest poking CBF of the APOD that I was at when the man asked me a question. How dare I, one of the 'great unwashed' answer the questions of a Group Captain with honesty!? Not good.
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Karear-Kawprul
Guest
Standards said:
Well said Standards.
More FOMs less Failed Other Training Schools - that should free up some promotion slots. Sorry grinding my own particular axe there, do forgive me.
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Fenella
Guest
My apologies for my 'rant' Standards! well said. My belief is that there is a pass mark but I do not know what it is. As for the Flight Ops Officers future, my guess is that when the Aircrew have their fast jets taken from them on the drawdown, rather than making the 'brevets' redundant, they will put them in ground tours- Ops rooms things like that! .................Hang on! this sounds familiar!
I
izitme
Guest
Flight Ops Branch
Flight Ops Branch
Fenella,
The pass mark for the Flight ops course is worked out using the same principle as for GCSE's - in other words it is a floating mark and moves in relation to the lowest scores on the course. For if example if the lowest score on course is 70% the pass mark will be 69%, if however the lowest score is 10% then the pass mark will become 9%. hmmmmmmmmmm
Flight Ops Branch
Fenella,
The pass mark for the Flight ops course is worked out using the same principle as for GCSE's - in other words it is a floating mark and moves in relation to the lowest scores on the course. For if example if the lowest score on course is 70% the pass mark will be 69%, if however the lowest score is 10% then the pass mark will become 9%. hmmmmmmmmmm
F
FOMP
Guest
Has anyone noticed yet, we haven't had a response from any FOTS Officers! Maybe they are still trying to figure out how to switch the PC on.
I must admit I look forward to the day we get 'some' aircrew back into the Ops Rooms, I've worked with several in the past both at home and OOA and if you worked hard and did your best they gave you respect and more importantly 'topcover' when you needed it (anyone remember that). However, certain FOTS monkeys (in fact all of them IIRC) were only interested in the power they could gain, pontificating on Ops matters they hadn't a clue about and covering their sixes when things went pearshaped.
I fondly remember one Aircrew Ops Officer (pull up a sandbag PUAS).........we had a Royal Flight Ba146 positioning with us to pick up HMTQ, the whole station was on tenterhooks, everyone (on shift) had been briefed where it was parking, timings etc. Just as it landed a young SACW X came into Ops to start her shift oblivious of the arrangements but keen and eager. Hadly Box from ATC Local goes.....burp.... burp...."hi can you confirm where the 146 is parking (bear in mind that ATC had been inspecting the southside hangar end slot for weeks, getting it tarted up and swept etc). SACW X looks up at movements board to parking slot box and sees that no slot had been designated on the board (cos we all knew where it was parking didn't we). SACW X reverts to SOPs which were if there is nothing in the box then the visitor parks northside with VASF, so she tells ATC (nobody else was listening because the Stn wheels had noisily gone into warp factor 9) "Oh park it on the VAS pan". ATC the little darlings, didn't query this at all, throw the carefully worked plan into the bin and tell the captain to taxi northside. The VASF VIP reception crew in their whites and holding SMREs watch calmly(ish) as the 146 turns the wrong way off the main and taxis towards their un-manned VASF pan, the nervously (now) marshalls wait for it to shut down..... and then panic. Do they tell ATC on the radio to send him back southside? No they switch their radio off and run into the nearby OC Eng's office and hysterically tell him whats happened. Needless to say during the next 10 mins everyone from the Stn Cdr down decends on the Ops Room, yelling their heads off, ATC keep telling everyone "it's not our fault", SAC X threatening to commit suiside in the corner with Cpl(W) shift NCO standing in front of her threatening to kill anyone who comes near SAC X (including me, 2 minutes later she sends X back to the WAFERY, stood down!). SLOPS chest pushing OC ENG, OC Admin holding OC Eng's coat, the suppliers gigling their heads off in the other corner....pandamonium. Out of the corner of my eye I see the (C130 pilot) Duty Ops Officer (God bless you Mike) quietly tell the ATC Sup on the phone to ask the RF crew to startup and taxi back south side....quickly, then he got up, put his hat on and silently left the Ops Room. He walked between the hangars and got to the 146 just as the steps were coming down, he goes up into the cockpit and introduces himself, apologises to the crew saying it was his responsibility and he's the one to blaim for the screwup, they see the brevet on his wooly pully and say "no problem mate". Mike walks calmly back to the Ops Room, where now there is a full scale war on.......... he shouts...."shut up" and then quietly says "it's sorted, no problems and by the way HMTQ is just about to arrive on Stn so I suggest you all get on with it". ENDEX what would a FOTS Officer have done, I wonder?
I could go on all day giving examples of what some FOTS people get up to, however, unlike them I get on with my job when I need to. Now FOMs taking commissions to become FOTS Officers, being blocked......thats another story!
I must admit I look forward to the day we get 'some' aircrew back into the Ops Rooms, I've worked with several in the past both at home and OOA and if you worked hard and did your best they gave you respect and more importantly 'topcover' when you needed it (anyone remember that). However, certain FOTS monkeys (in fact all of them IIRC) were only interested in the power they could gain, pontificating on Ops matters they hadn't a clue about and covering their sixes when things went pearshaped.
I fondly remember one Aircrew Ops Officer (pull up a sandbag PUAS).........we had a Royal Flight Ba146 positioning with us to pick up HMTQ, the whole station was on tenterhooks, everyone (on shift) had been briefed where it was parking, timings etc. Just as it landed a young SACW X came into Ops to start her shift oblivious of the arrangements but keen and eager. Hadly Box from ATC Local goes.....burp.... burp...."hi can you confirm where the 146 is parking (bear in mind that ATC had been inspecting the southside hangar end slot for weeks, getting it tarted up and swept etc). SACW X looks up at movements board to parking slot box and sees that no slot had been designated on the board (cos we all knew where it was parking didn't we). SACW X reverts to SOPs which were if there is nothing in the box then the visitor parks northside with VASF, so she tells ATC (nobody else was listening because the Stn wheels had noisily gone into warp factor 9) "Oh park it on the VAS pan". ATC the little darlings, didn't query this at all, throw the carefully worked plan into the bin and tell the captain to taxi northside. The VASF VIP reception crew in their whites and holding SMREs watch calmly(ish) as the 146 turns the wrong way off the main and taxis towards their un-manned VASF pan, the nervously (now) marshalls wait for it to shut down..... and then panic. Do they tell ATC on the radio to send him back southside? No they switch their radio off and run into the nearby OC Eng's office and hysterically tell him whats happened. Needless to say during the next 10 mins everyone from the Stn Cdr down decends on the Ops Room, yelling their heads off, ATC keep telling everyone "it's not our fault", SAC X threatening to commit suiside in the corner with Cpl(W) shift NCO standing in front of her threatening to kill anyone who comes near SAC X (including me, 2 minutes later she sends X back to the WAFERY, stood down!). SLOPS chest pushing OC ENG, OC Admin holding OC Eng's coat, the suppliers gigling their heads off in the other corner....pandamonium. Out of the corner of my eye I see the (C130 pilot) Duty Ops Officer (God bless you Mike) quietly tell the ATC Sup on the phone to ask the RF crew to startup and taxi back south side....quickly, then he got up, put his hat on and silently left the Ops Room. He walked between the hangars and got to the 146 just as the steps were coming down, he goes up into the cockpit and introduces himself, apologises to the crew saying it was his responsibility and he's the one to blaim for the screwup, they see the brevet on his wooly pully and say "no problem mate". Mike walks calmly back to the Ops Room, where now there is a full scale war on.......... he shouts...."shut up" and then quietly says "it's sorted, no problems and by the way HMTQ is just about to arrive on Stn so I suggest you all get on with it". ENDEX what would a FOTS Officer have done, I wonder?
I could go on all day giving examples of what some FOTS people get up to, however, unlike them I get on with my job when I need to. Now FOMs taking commissions to become FOTS Officers, being blocked......thats another story!
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Fenella
Guest
FOMZ, hear what you are saying and you are right, as I have mentioned before, there are a few guys and girls who really are worth their salt and will listen to what you have to say because they recognise and value your experience.However, the fact remains that whilst we have a duty as Seniors to look after these guys and make sure they go down the 'correct' path to success, there are so many that will not listen; will not give you credit for your experience and generally do not produce the goods. If they are doing it at JO level then they certainly won't listen when they get the elusive 'middle stripe' and really hit 'their' big time. If they were 'non comms', they would have been cut away as dead wood by now, and some would have had admin discharges! Whilst they are not listening to their 'branch' specialists ie US! they are giving our 'bread and butter' a bad name and that really pee's me off! As for Flt Ops heirarchy,I know that none of the chaps at the highest level want to know about the TG9 element of Flight Ops, simply too difficult for them to do. What does that tell you?
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izitme
Guest
Very interesting comments Fennella and I have to say that having recently left the trade after 22 years I wholeheartedly agree with what you have to say.
One of the major problems that this trade has is lack of support from the powers that be (mostly controllers who have no man management experience what so ever) which has now been made wors by involving Tg9 with a floundering fledgling branch just as an attempt to justify its existence.
I can speak from experience when I say that if the Flight Ops Branch was part of acivilian aviation organisation you would see mass sackings overnight - Its time to cut out the dead wood and move on
One of the major problems that this trade has is lack of support from the powers that be (mostly controllers who have no man management experience what so ever) which has now been made wors by involving Tg9 with a floundering fledgling branch just as an attempt to justify its existence.
I can speak from experience when I say that if the Flight Ops Branch was part of acivilian aviation organisation you would see mass sackings overnight - Its time to cut out the dead wood and move on
D
David Brent
Guest
Don't Ops Os say the funniest things
Don't Ops Os say the funniest things
I haven't laughed so much since the Swindon Branch joined us. You are either the Sqn Ldr in question or someone who has been brainwashed by him.
Priceless
Don't Ops Os say the funniest things
OpsOfficer said:
I haven't laughed so much since the Swindon Branch joined us. You are either the Sqn Ldr in question or someone who has been brainwashed by him.
Priceless
U
User Name
Guest
Why bother to talk about Flt Ops Officers at all? Within 5 years they will all dissapear like a failed experiment, somewhat akin to that of the famous Doctor Frankenstien....
Well didn't he try to manufacture something usefull out of the bits and pieces left behind by others and was then forced to flee by the villagers (are not most Stn Cmdrs purging their units of the aforementioned monsters?)
All I have to add is......
GRAB YOUR PITCHFORKS GUYS !
Well didn't he try to manufacture something usefull out of the bits and pieces left behind by others and was then forced to flee by the villagers (are not most Stn Cmdrs purging their units of the aforementioned monsters?)
All I have to add is......
GRAB YOUR PITCHFORKS GUYS !
S
Skids!
Guest
All About Me!
All About Me!
Well this looks like fun!
Just read the whole lot and I think 'ops officer' must have been very tired when he posted his note there - obviously a baby DOC!
At one time as a new SAC in my first ops room the ops officers let the rankers get on with the job only speaking when they were spoken to or if something drastic happened... Oh happy days
!
Then all at once a bunch of new DOC's got posted in and others posted out which caused mayhem. The new (untrained) baby DOC's took control of everything and seemed to be enjoying the 'micro-managment skills', they instantly discover when just out of Cranwell and, so many of us have had to adjust to, taking all the fun out of Ops all togther!
On the other hand however I once remember telling a more experienced DOC that one of a threeship hadn't returned and neither ATC, London Mil or Scot Mil could find it. The answer I got was 'Look out of the window..... do you see any smoke?'
So what does this say about the FLOPS branch? Nothing really... when they speak just smile, say 'Yes sir/ma'am' and reply with simple slow words, then check it with the FOM/Crew etc for confirmation.
Now a question to you all........ ATC's or Ops Officers, who do you trust?
All About Me!
Well this looks like fun!
Just read the whole lot and I think 'ops officer' must have been very tired when he posted his note there - obviously a baby DOC!
At one time as a new SAC in my first ops room the ops officers let the rankers get on with the job only speaking when they were spoken to or if something drastic happened... Oh happy days
!
Then all at once a bunch of new DOC's got posted in and others posted out which caused mayhem. The new (untrained) baby DOC's took control of everything and seemed to be enjoying the 'micro-managment skills', they instantly discover when just out of Cranwell and, so many of us have had to adjust to, taking all the fun out of Ops all togther!
On the other hand however I once remember telling a more experienced DOC that one of a threeship hadn't returned and neither ATC, London Mil or Scot Mil could find it. The answer I got was 'Look out of the window..... do you see any smoke?'
So what does this say about the FLOPS branch? Nothing really... when they speak just smile, say 'Yes sir/ma'am' and reply with simple slow words, then check it with the FOM/Crew etc for confirmation.
Now a question to you all........ ATC's or Ops Officers, who do you trust?
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
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What a question!! Thats like "Daddy or Chips?"
Nah seriously, hate to say this but its got to be Ops Os, at least Ops Os dont try and W&nk in your chip pan everytime the coffee is cold, the phone is left ringing or the flying program extends past 1700!!
Edited to point out that it was a really close run thing and George Dubya was nearly in the photo finish too
Nah seriously, hate to say this but its got to be Ops Os, at least Ops Os dont try and W&nk in your chip pan everytime the coffee is cold, the phone is left ringing or the flying program extends past 1700!!
Edited to point out that it was a really close run thing and George Dubya was nearly in the photo finish too
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