The Devolved Admin Debate

[SgtScribbly]

I thought the "if I were Trade Sponsor" thread was drifting Off Topic so thought I might start a new thread just about the devolved admin thing as KingGuin has certainly stimulated some debate/comments from me below.

Mutty let me introduce you to the concept of "taking the p*ss". It is something I specialise in when not concentrating on the arduous duties of my day job. If you read my posts, I like to stimulate debate, I believe it to be healthy. However, you have made a schoolboy error by assuming I work in the PFA and that my current Unit is not operational. You are wrong on both counts, however I'll think about forgiving you during my extended lunchbreak/gym hour/general skiving later. DT_Xtremez_15:

Ah, he says with Devil's Advocate hat on, Mission Support that good old core TG17 competency - not. I remember calling for all TG17 TORs at a Unit and asking a Sqn SNCO to justify the inclusion of "washing the Sqn Cdr's car" and "updating the Sqn Social register" in his TORs. This is the same individual, now left, who told me with a straight face that "walking the Sqn Cdr's dog" should also be included as is took up much of his time.

Joking aside, lets fuel to the debate. Sqn Clks eh? Sqn Strength @ 200-250, TG17 establishment normally 1 Sgt, 1 Cpl maybe an SAC and usually a civy E2. A couple of dets a year to prep for and the Bosses dog to walk - easy life! Anyone who fails to shine on a Sqn should be shot. Discuss.

KG, tonka Sqn strenths are only about 160-170 now (however you got the Admin contingent about right for most) so not sure what type of sqn you are in regular contact with. Are they all not a lot smaller now post lean etc?

muttys post also said "I used to do Mission Planning stuff" so obviously that wouldnt/doesnt happen these days as the Sqn clerks are busy with their PFA job. fwiw I was posted to a Mission Planning job as an SAC Admin not that long ago (in the mid/late 90s), but that was in the day when the trade did so many other jobs (stats posts anyone?) other than PSF task, so whilst never a core job, it is certainly something we have been involved in before, so to pour scorn on a Sqn clerk doing it the past is unreasonable.

Updating the Social Register shouldnt be done by TG17 on a sqn? Social registers/callout list are an essential management tool so someone has to maintain them - why not the people who see all the new arrivals and departures etc. Just out of interest who does the one for PSFs/PMSs these days then?

Only one other comment on the above KG, I know plenty of examples of SACs or Cpls not being able to hack the job in Sqns these days. They werent shot as you suggest but were simply shipped off to PSF where their average performance is less noticed and can be covered up by the other clerks around them.

Devolved admin is obviously the future - Chf Clks/SNCO PSFs have been massively keen on devolvement happening over the last few years. Or were they? Were they just keen to remove that task form their aor? That may sound contentious, but if they thought PSF really was the way forward why not just strive for all the Sqn Admin posts to be chopped and do it all centrally? No you dont ever hear of that being suggested for some reason.

 

[TrebleB]

Hello all. At my unit we have now fully devolved (or federated in occifer speak)!

It happened in January - we now have an admin (cell) or 'Pers Spt Office' to look after the engineers, one to look after everyone else (BSW/Ops and parented peeps)

the sqns look after themselves with a sgt and SAC (yes I do remember what an SAC looks like - even with 62% manning!!)

All that is left of the old PSF is the OC, Chf Clk, Dep Chf Clk and P1. OC and WO PMS are still around though and the good ole A1 Ops Cell sits somewhere in the ether...

It is working at the moment but will work a damn site better with bums on seats instead of pushing prams (but that's a rant for another day!!)

(Oh, and I remember washing the Sqn Cdr's car on 33 Sqn in 1991!!)

 

[busby1971]

Which would you rather do

Which would you rather do

To put a comparison forward I feel that PSF is/was seen as a distant entitity, they have/had little concern for those that came for help. Some of these citidels were self serving (not all, not most just some) and in their defence the customer was not aware of the volume of work taking place within the barrackades.

The devolved admin office was a different prospect, whilst you may have not been recognised at one of the core functions of your area, you were still one of the guys (or gals). You knew your organisation, you knew your personnel and you knew what stresses and strains were ongoing.

Being there meant you provided that little bit extra and cared more for those around you. Personally I have spent more of my time away from PSF/SHQ 2 years in 20, does this make me a better Pers Support may be, may be not, but the requirement to be the guy in charge either as an SAC or Cpl in the absence of those above, at the point of service in many various locations, for one reason or another, has given me a great deal of reward and satisfaction.

Where I work at the moment I am supported by admin that does nothing to help our promote our cause, the Cpls great but his higher is not, (employed out of trade - NICE) not for me as I don't need help (time to do blah blah blah) but my colleagues need help and are not getting it. Rules are rules but extra regulatory approval is just an email away.

 

[KingGuin]

KG, tonka Sqn strenths are only about 160-170 now (however you got the Admin contingent about right for most) so not sure what type of sqn you are in regular contact with. Are they all not a lot smaller now post lean etc?

I can assure you I am perfectly and intimately aware of Tonka Sqn nos and the staffing levels of their TG17. I was being generic.

muttys post also said "I used to do Mission Planning stuff" so obviously that wouldnt/doesnt happen these days as the Sqn clerks are busy with their PFA job. fwiw I was posted to a Mission Planning job as an SAC Admin not that long ago (in the mid/late 90s), but that was in the day when the trade did so many other jobs (stats posts anyone?) other than PSF task, so whilst never a core job, it is certainly something we have been involved in before, so to pour scorn on a Sqn clerk doing it the past is unreasonable.

I was not pouring scorn, I was taking the p*ss. However, I don't think you'll find mission planning on the A1 TG17 Core Competencies list

Updating the Social Register shouldnt be done by TG17 on a sqn? Social registers/callout list are an essential management tool so someone has to maintain them - why not the people who see all the new arrivals and departures etc. Just out of interest who does the one for PSFs/PMSs these days then?

Social registers and callout lists are seperate beasts - unless the Sqn consider it a requirement to know the names of an entire family before they can call out the one that matters - now I am taking the p*ss - again. In my many years in the PFA I never once maintained, or had a clerk maintain, a social register, a call out list always, a social register never.

Only one other comment on the above KG, I know plenty of examples of SACs or Cpls not being able to hack the job in Sqns these days. They werent shot as you suggest but were simply shipped off to PSF where their average performance is less noticed and can be covered up by the other clerks around them.

Historically PSF was more demanding, and poorer performing clerks would be shipped to an "easy life" on a Sqn. I've had plenty of clerks ask for a move to a Sqn but never had one ask for a move away from a Sqn. However, it's getting late and I'm tired and emotional so I'll give you that one. These days it would appear easier to hide one cr*p clerk amongst a throng.

Devolved admin is obviously the future - Chf Clks/SNCO PSFs have been massively keen on devolvement happening over the last few years. Or were they? Were they just keen to remove that task form their aor? That may sound contentious, but if they thought PSF really was the way forward why not just strive for all the Sqn Admin posts to be chopped and do it all centrally? No you dont ever hear of that being suggested for some reason.

Switching to NOT TAKING THE P*SS MODE You make a sweeping and bold statement that "Devolved Admin is obviously the future" - why? Will it provide a better service? What level of management supervision do you suggest is required from the PFA? Should devolved staff be exempt from the control and guidance (IAW Cmd directive) of the Chf Clk? Before you answer I can think of 3 Units immediately who devolved and recalled within 12 months and another 3 who devolved and remain so.

I'll start the ball rolling with the suggestion that devolved admin works or fails on the strength of the NCO/SNCOs leading the section.

PS

To suggest that Sqn Admin posts are chopped is ridiculous - after all who would wash the Bosses Car and maintan the social register?

 

[muttywhitedog]

My Unit is one that has gone down the devolvement route, and it has worked really well for us on a Sqn. Everything is actioned quicker, largely down to the fact that my personnel can come to us at 6pm in their overalls and sign something, rather than having to wait a week until they are on days, to put a shirt & tie on and trog to PSF (when its open) to sign the same bit of paper. That's got to be progress!

I'll start the ball rolling with the suggestion that devolved admin works or fails on the strength of the NCO/SNCOs leading the section.

100% agree. If the Wg/Sqn Adjts are weak, they are totally overrun. Effectively they are now their own unit's chf clk and should be allowed to get on with the job of administering their own unit without outside interference.

To suggest that Sqn Admin posts are chopped is ridiculous - after all who would wash the Bosses Car and maintan the social register?

At least on a Sqn the clerks are performing these "vital" tasks for a Wg Cdr, as opposed to being a Flt Lt/Fg Offs Tea Boy/Girl in PSF!DT_Xtremez_31:

 

[KingGuin]

100% agree. If the Wg/Sqn Adjts are weak, they are totally overrun. Effectively they are now their own unit's chf clk and should be allowed to get on with the job of administering their own unit without outside interference.

Mutty my dear chap are you suggesting (outside interference) that devolved admin be totally autonomous? Who will then (again IAW Cmd directive) be responsible for the personal and professional development of the troops therein? Surely not the SNCO without guidance from the Chf Clk?

 

[3wheeledtechie]

I'll start the ball rolling with the suggestion that devolved admin works or fails on the strength of the NCO/SNCOs leading the section

Quite right. Isn't that what the WO's network is for? Sqn WO phones Chf Clk, says not happy Cpl X isn't cutting the mustard, Chf Clk pays a surprise visit to said admin office to see what's going on. No reason why guidance from Chf Clk means visiting PSF, I'm sure they can access a set of wheels and can pay a visit! Or are they too important to leave their PSF empire?

 

[fed_up_scribbly]

Effectively they are now their own unit's chf clk and should be allowed to get on with the job of administering their own unit without outside interference.

Mutty, this is an extremely naive comment if you don't mind me saying. BSW/Admin Wg (whatever applies at your particular unit) retains ultimate responsibilty for the provision of personnel support whether they have opted to devolve the actual administrative processes outwith PSF or otherwise. It would be a very foolish Chf Clk who also absolved himself of his management responsibilties purely because the people who process pay inputs, expenses, promotions, ACRs etc do not physically work in PSF. At the end of the day he is responsible for all the A1 work that is done at his/her unit and must therefore "interfere" as you put it in order to do his own job. The bottom line is that you are doing a job on his/her behalf, ultimately you answer to him where personnel admin is concerned not the sqn boss.

As sqn admin you are not a chf clk, you are SNCO IC xx Sqn Admin - you are not there to deal with issues relating to welfare or casework and the like; by all means feel free to give advice on processes and services that are available but this area of personnel support must, and rightly so, remain with the chf clk.

As to niff-naff such as social registers - why is this a TG 17 responsibility. When I was on a sqn I made sure that the Aircrew/Groundcrew fund holders took ownership of these particular documents as they were the primary users of them. We are not doing ourselves any favours by accepting any old crap jobs that involves keeping a track of addresses just because somebody else can't be bothered.

 

[pixie]

I'm currently working on a sqn and we have had all the admin devolved down to us. I personally think its a great idea as we know our guys and the feed back we get is mostly positive. I've worked in PSFs in the past and I personally enjoy it more on a Sqn as you get more responsibility. I think its the way forward, when I'm posted somewhere else for example back to PSF I will know what I'm doing as I've been doing the same job on the Sqn and vise versa for someone who's worked in a PSF and then gets moved to a Sqn..........blah de blah

 

[Shiney Scot]

Having seen both sides of the fence I prefer the devolvement route but as previously stated this depends on the strength and abilities of the S/JNCO in the devolved area. My biggest problem with the devolvement route is that it makes the Chf Clk a "postman" for the Sqn Adjt because Manning / HQ AC refuse to deal directly (in most occasions) with the Adjt because they are not the Chf Clk. As far as I'm aware Project Apollo does nothing to change this. We need someone to make an informed decision on devolvement or not. If it is devolvement then that should include HQ AC and Manning. Some of their procedures only put another "cog in the wheel" and are definitely ripe for leaning.

 

[3wheeledtechie]

From the techie side of the fence, back in the day, when I was on a Sqn, the admin cell were regarded as part of the Sqn, gave excellent service and individuals got to deploy on dets with us when there were enough of us away to warrant it. It was popular with the SACs, and at the time they had to prove themselves in the main PSF to earn a normally 18 month or 2 year tour on a Sqn. Also saved the massive waste of time and resources in getting changed into blues, tracking down a vehicle, and crossing the airfield, just to complete routine paperwork at PSF.

 

[Drill Instructor]

My Unit is one that has gone down the devolvement route, and it has worked really well for us on a Sqn. Everything is actioned quicker, largely down to the fact that my personnel can come to us at 6pm in their overalls and sign something, rather than having to wait a week until they are on days, to put a shirt & tie on and trog to PSF (when its open) to sign the same bit of paper. That's got to be progress!



The concept that the Sqn Admin role is easier than a PSF is false. The typical Sqn Admin office of Sgt, Cpl and SAC will nearly always have at least one OOA and or a post gapped, in a typical PSF how many of the clerks are fit to do OOA’s 50% – 60%? Yes Sqn’s have fewer customers however you have an input to every bit of the customers Admin. Working in PSF for example as an Allowance clerk, Discharge clerk or DWR clerk doing the same job day in and out is repetitive. Maybe some clerks prefer Sqn work because of the variety and possibility of Sqn detachments and occasionally seeing parts of the world that aren’t always hot and sandy.

Devolved Admin across Eng and Ops Wg’s though in my opinion does not work. Depending on the station lay out some customers actually travel further to see their clerks. MWD you say customers on nights prefer to see a clerk in their overalls at 6pm then wait a week to when they are on days. With low manning levels especially at SAC level how does your section provide the manning and supervision required? I am all for being customer focussed but at some stage the customer has to meet you half way. If it’s important to them can they come in 15 minutes early and discuss it in civi’s before getting changed and doing their shift handover?

 

[muttywhitedog]

MWD you say customers on nights prefer to see a clerk in their overalls at 6pm then wait a week to when they are on days. With low manning levels especially at SAC level how does your section provide the manning and supervision required? I am all for being customer focussed but at some stage the customer has to meet you half way. If it’s important to them can they come in 15 minutes early and discuss it in civi’s before getting changed and doing their shift handover? [/SIZE][/FONT]

Simple. Me and my staff have staggered hours so that someone starts late and stays back until 6 or 7 at night, depending on day or night flying. Manning & Supervision are no problem - it just requires a more flexible working approach and losing the fixation that clerks only work 8-12 and 1-5, and everyone should come to them during these times, even if it outside their working day.

 

[TrebleB]

Mutty, this is an extremely naive comment if you don't mind me saying. BSW/Admin Wg (whatever applies at your particular unit) retains ultimate responsibilty for the provision of personnel support whether they have opted to devolve the actual administrative processes outwith PSF or otherwise. It would be a very foolish Chf Clk who also absolved himself of his management responsibilties purely because the people who process pay inputs, expenses, promotions, ACRs etc do not physically work in PSF. At the end of the day he is responsible for all the A1 work that is done at his/her unit and must therefore "interfere" as you put it in order to do his own job. The bottom line is that you are doing a job on his/her behalf, ultimately you answer to him where personnel admin is concerned not the sqn boss.

As sqn admin you are not a chf clk, you are SNCO IC xx Sqn Admin - you are not there to deal with issues relating to welfare or casework and the like; by all means feel free to give advice on processes and services that are available but this area of personnel support must, and rightly so, remain with the chf clk.

As to niff-naff such as social registers - why is this a TG 17 responsibility. When I was on a sqn I made sure that the Aircrew/Groundcrew fund holders took ownership of these particular documents as they were the primary users of them. We are not doing ourselves any favours by accepting any old crap jobs that involves keeping a track of addresses just because somebody else can't be bothered.

Ah - but at my Unit each SNCO ic xx Admin is an Assistant Chief Clerk and deals with the vast majority of chf clk issues such as casework - only one person - WO PMS deals with welfare along with the Stn Welfare committee.

Our Chf Clk has retained the responsibility and ultimate accountability to OC PSF/PMS for the administration and TG17 personal and professional development.

In response to the earlier comment about visiting the section - the chf clk has a visit programme and spends 2 hours each day at 2 of the devolved sections. Not only to view and see the concerns of the section itself, but to deal with Unit Careers Advice. Have not heard anything negative yet - from either TG17 or customer base.

 

[SgtScribbly]

Switching to NOT TAKING THE P*SS MODE You make a sweeping and bold statement that "Devolved Admin is obviously the future" - why? Will it provide a better service? What level of management supervision do you suggest is required from the PFA? Should devolved staff be exempt from the control and guidance (IAW Cmd directive) of the Chf Clk? Before you answer I can think of 3 Units immediately who devolved and recalled within 12 months and another 3 who devolved and remain so.

I'll start the ball rolling with the suggestion that devolved admin works or fails on the strength of the NCO/SNCOs leading the section.

PS

To suggest that Sqn Admin posts are chopped is ridiculous - after all who would wash the Bosses Car and maintan the social register?

ahh sorry KG I was merely taking your lead with my sweeping statement - it was very tongue in cheek. I'll put a warning on next time.

Unfortunately my experience of being on the receiving end of the devolvement has seen the WO and FS in PSF basically washing their hands of everything. They are not in the slightest bit interested in visiting at all despite numerous invitations and attempt to forge better relations between us, them and their staff. So when it is suggested that we should then come under their command and control, it doesnt sit well for me. If I were to have a in-trade matter that I could not resolve myself then I would undoubtedly go knock on their door for advice, but the day to day decisions I make are for the good of my section and the Sqn as a whole.

Do the Ops SNCOs come under the FOM, nope. Do the Int Staff report to the Stn Int O, no. They both can use them extensively as Trade advisors if required but they for the Sqn hierarchy.

 

[KingGuin]

ahh sorry KG I was merely taking your lead with my sweeping statement - it was very tongue in cheek. I'll put a warning on next time.

Thanks SS, I am getting on a bit and need all the help I can get. It sounds as though you have your work cut out. You could always flag your dilema to the TS..............now that was taking the p*ss.

 

[busbyboy]

Simple. Me and my staff have staggered hours so that someone starts late and stays back until 6 or 7 at night, depending on day or night flying. Manning & Supervision are no problem - it just requires a more flexible working approach and losing the fixation that clerks only work 8-12 and 1-5, and everyone should come to them during these times, even if it outside their working day.

Totally agree. Did this on 54(F) Sqn in 1993 and it worked a treat. It is a 2-way street, and we also worked "Deci Shifts" on Dets just like everyone else - it's amazing how much empathy you can build up by just these little things. On another point, it is vital to stand your corner as a "TM" and not let the Engineers try to bulldoze, which they are quite prone to do given half a chance. After they have sized you up, you will gain due respect - so long as you produce the goods. And, no-one is beyond seeking assistance from HH or elsewhere if required.

 

[tacadmin]

I'm currently working on a sqn and we have had all the admin devolved down to us. I personally think its a great idea as we know our guys and the feed back we get is mostly positive. I've worked in PSFs in the past and I personally enjoy it more on a Sqn as you get more responsibility. I think its the way forward, when I'm posted somewhere else for example back to PSF I will know what I'm doing as I've been doing the same job on the Sqn and vise versa for someone who's worked in a PSF and then gets moved to a Sqn..........blah de blah

Good point. I remember the good old days (Pre-JPA) when all the Sqn Clks did at my Unit were action SAMA Movements, Leave passes and arrange travel...... sorry, they had a little registry as well!
EVERYTHING else was done by us in PSF. The problem we had was when a Sqn Clk had to come over and help us when we had manning issues, and we'd have been better off with an LAC straight from trg.
I used to take the p!ss out of Sqn Clks for having an easy life, but it seemd that Sqn Admin offices have now become 'mini PSF's' and that can only be a good thing, for both the individual and the techies etc they are looking after.

I agree that the Chf Clk has to have overall control of the clerks on Unit though. And i'd like to think that admin practices across the Unit should be more or less identical.