Shift workers and Bank Holidays

[KingGuin]

Not meaning to upset the SCRIBBLIES, but some of us that have no choice but to work Bank Holiday Mondays have found that ACOS manning is down - yet again. Something bad is on the horizon. (And its not ASH!)

When are they going to release any1 this year, the board sat months ago but no1 has any info. Is this due to the system back up failure and has it happened again?

Well Brock, I too was in work today. Only because I am so cr*p I had to go in to catch up with all the stuff I can't do in real work time. Mrs KG made me a little lunchbox and at lunchtime I stopped messing up admin and had a peek at the ACOS site @ 1215; must have crashed after.

Then when I went back to Outlook Express it had crashed so I phoned the SPOC and no-one answered and I phoned C4I and no-one answerred there either. If I'd known you were in we could have had a nice chat.

Anyway I was too busy chatting I almost forgot ask why us shineys would be upset you had to work a Bank Holiday? You'll get the time off in lieu and no doubt the ACOS manning site will be up and running soon. That aside, if you are in with a shout on a PSB why not phone direct and ask. But not today, its a Bank Holiday and only you and me are in at the mo!

 

[Weebl]

You'll get the time off in lieu

No we don't

 

[Climebear]

No we don't

The Public Holiday allocation is now part of your Individual Leave Allowance -that is why it went up from 30 days to 38 days last year. If you work on the national bank holiday you would not have submitted a leave application; therefore, theoretically, you still have that day on your leave allowance to take when you want or (more probably) can!


KG - I have an excuse for working over the grant, what's yours? (On yer bike).

 

[Brock Lee]

Originally Posted by KingGuin
You'll get the time off in lieu

I wish i want to work in a world like that sumthing us mere linnies can only dream of.

 

[Climebear]

Working so I can get out on my bike. If you get a mo have a peek at this:

www.skinforskin.co.uk

I'm sure you'll recognise one or two of us. In the meantime, keep your head down!

Great site KG and a worthy charity to support - good luck to all involved (yes I recognise a fair few of them - I must be getting old!).

(I also haven't missed recognising an opportunity to be fleeced by you yet again (all in a good cause). What with you and Dobbo's antics I won't have any OA left at this rate.)

 

[Weebl]

The Public Holiday allocation is now part of your Individual Leave Allowance -that is why it went up from 30 days to 38 days last year. If you work on the national bank holiday you would not have submitted a leave application; therefore, theoretically, you still have that day on your leave allowance to take when you want or (more probably) can!


KG - I have an excuse for working over the grant, what's yours? (On yer bike).

And if you work shifts on our Squadron you have the 8 days for Public Holidays removed. I will say it once more. We do not get Public Holidays unless we happen to be on standdown that day anyway.

Anybody else want to explain to me how we get Bank Holidays off?

 

[Climebear]

Weebl

There is nothing that I can see in JSP760 (available on the Airspace section of the RAF website) that permits the chain of command to deduct 8 days from an individual's Annual Leave Allowance. Indeed it mentiones this in Para 1.002:

...Although part of the leave allocation PH do not have to be taken on the exact date; when they are taken remains at the discretion of the chain of command....

Note the wording is 'when thay are taken' not 'if they are taken'.

and this at Para 1.004

It is MOD policy that COs enable their personnel to take the full 38 days’ Annual Leave Allowance (ALA), unless this is unavoidable due to operational requirements or exigencies of the Service....

... COs are expected to plan so far as reasonably possible to allow personnel under their command to take the full leave allowance. Any refusal to allow personnel to take their full leave allowance must be justified by the CO under single-Service arrangements ...

Of course there could be some single-Service guidance in the form of a policy letter that isn't shown on airspace. Any Chf Clks/OC PSFs care to confim?

 

[Joe_90]

Sounds like your Squadron Management are screwing you and the lads over then Weebl.

 

[KingGuin]

Weebl I am sure you are an individual of the highest repute, but in all my many years clerking I have never heard the like. Lets look at the sheer logistics: average on a Sqn 200. Personnel arriving and departing daily which, in turn, means records must be amended daily.Then, if an individual arrives in new PLY month 1 then leaves same PLY month 10 then leave needs to be adjusted - lose some for being on a Sqn, give some back for going to the real world. Then lets take the scenario of a Sqn dude being NFU OOA (and yes it can happen)? Not being employed on a Sqn then surely that person is entitled to 1/3 of 8 days back surely. And so on and so forth.

Clime is correct, the JSP makes no exception for this and I stand by to be advised on single service policy that I am unaware of.

Or you could name the Sqn/or PM me the details and I'll phone the Chf Clk or Sqn Clk and get the gen.

 

[Weebl]

Weebl I am sure you are an individual of the highest repute, but in all my many years clerking I have never heard the like. Lets look at the sheer logistics: average on a Sqn 200. Personnel arriving and departing daily which, in turn, means records must be amended daily.Then, if an individual arrives in new PLY month 1 then leaves same PLY month 10 then leave needs to be adjusted - lose some for being on a Sqn, give some back for going to the real world. Then lets take the scenario of a Sqn dude being NFU OOA (and yes it can happen)? Not being employed on a Sqn then surely that person is entitled to 1/3 of 8 days back surely. And so on and so forth.

Clime is correct, the JSP makes no exception for this and I stand by to be advised on single service policy that I am unaware of.

Or you could name the Sqn/or PM me the details and I'll phone the Chf Clk or Sqn Clk and get the gen.

Mate, I am sure you are not having a pop or calling me a liar.

To explain a little further, the days were supposed to initially be removed from the whole Sqn shift personnel on the day (or the day after or whatever) to prevent the exact problem you have discussed.

This did not happen, we asked about it and were told that the Sqn HR were too busy, and they would be deleted at the end of the leave year. We pointed out that this could cause the issues you have highlighted, and also pointed out that if somebody just uses it all and gets it past an unwary approver, what are they going to do? We were told to shush because they were all over it.

As it now stands people who did as briefed and wanted to carry over 15 days (IE, kept 23 days) have had the 8 removed by proxy, those who used all but the 8, have so far had 8 carried over (and permutations between)

We have still been briefed we are not entitled to the extra 8, even though they seem to have done nothing about last years 8. This may mean they have not got round to it yet, or may mean they have realised they are going against the JSP's quoted above, I don't know?

I do know that until the BHs were added to the leave entitlement that I have never been on a Sqn that gave shifties BHs Since they were added I have been briefed not to use 8 of my entitlement because I was not entitled to it, and I was to ensure that the people whose leave I approve kept 8 over.

I will ask tomorrow for clarification of the Sqn policy, They may simply restate what we have been told in which case I will ask about the above quoted JSPs.

 

[KingGuin]

Mate, I am sure you are not having a pop or calling me a liar.

To explain a little further, the days were supposed to initially be removed from the whole Sqn shift personnel on the day (or the day after or whatever) to prevent the exact problem you have discussed.

This did not happen, we asked about it and were told that the Sqn HR were too busy, and they would be deleted at the end of the leave year. We pointed out that this could cause the issues you have highlighted, and also pointed out that if somebody just uses it all and gets it past an unwary approver, what are they going to do? We were told to shush because they were all over it.

As it now stands people who did as briefed and wanted to carry over 15 days (IE, kept 23 days) have had the 8 removed by proxy, those who used all but the 8, have so far had 8 carried over (and permutations between)

We have still been briefed we are not entitled to the extra 8, even though they seem to have done nothing about last years 8. This may mean they have not got round to it yet, or may mean they have realised they are going against the JSP's quoted above, I don't know?

I do know that until the BHs were added to the leave entitlement that I have never been on a Sqn that gave shifties BHs Since they were added I have been briefed not to use 8 of my entitlement because I was not entitled to it, and I was to ensure that the people whose leave I approve kept 8 over.

I will ask tomorrow for clarification of the Sqn policy, They may simply restate what we have been told in which case I will ask about the above quoted JSPs.

Weebl, I'm absolutely bemused. Something not quite right there. If the Sqn Scribblies have taken that action then they must have had authority and thus (I believe) set a precedent. Be sure to chase it up and let us know.

 

[Climebear]

Weebl

The only reference I can find to arrangements for shift workers in the JSP is in the Chapter on Authorised Absence (Chapter 2) that also covers other absences stand-downs, unpaid leave, special paid leave and (if your lucky enough to be in the RN and be on a ship that sinks) survivors' leave!

WATCHKEEPING/SHIFT PATTERNS​

2.039 On joining a dedicated watchkeeping post or being nominated for shift duties, Service personnel will fall into the local cycle with the stand-downs for that cycle being determined by local management.

2.040 Annual Leave is to be incorporated into the stand-down calculation and should not be accrued except in exceptional circumstances. Where necessary, annual leave is to be re-calculated on a pro-rata basis at the commencement of the cycle.

2.041 Some watchkeeping/shift patterns can be very demanding, and Service personnel nominated for these roles should be encouraged to take any accumulated leave prior to taking up the new post.

No mention of non-applicability of Bank Holidays here.

The paragraph on incorporation of Annual Leave into the stand-down calculation refers to those shift patterns when leave cannot be taken so it is built into (slightly longer) stand-downs between shift cycles. The principle is that the shift pattern should permit a similar number of days off to the standard day-worker ie (104 'weekend days' + 38 days leave = 223 working days and 142 days stand-down in a 365 day cycle (or very close to 8 days on and 5 days off continuously with no additional leave)).

I would imagine that there can be very few shift patterns in the Service that would require all annual leave to be built into the stand-down calculation. I haven't seen any in my (almost) 25 years of Service (that has included working some stupid shift patterns (MATO anyone?)).

Unfortunately, I'm in a country far-far-away at the moment so I can't dig any further; however, I am sure that if you drop the details to King Guin, he can undertake some discreet enquiries.

 

[Hu Jardon]

And if you work shifts on our Squadron you have the 8 days for Public Holidays removed. I will say it once more. We do not get Public Holidays unless we happen to be on standdown that day anyway.

Anybody else want to explain to me how we get Bank Holidays off?

You need to take this up a level because your right to Public Holidays (ie the extra 8 days) or time off in lieu is laid down in European and British Law and if other members of the armed forces get it and you don't then that is an inequality - and we wouldn't want that would we.

The UK minimum holday for a full time worker is 20 days (the MoD has chosen to make their minimum 30 days).

In 2007 Europe decided we all needed an extra 4 days for European public holidays - law. In Apr 2009 the UK government decided to give us all another 4 days for the British Public Holidays - law. This gives a minimum of 20 plus 4 plus 4 = 28 days a year for full time workers

so for MoD employees that is 30 plus 4 plus 4 = 38 days and that is why JPA had to be reprogrammed - because its the law not because anyone was being generous

http://www.worksmart.org.uk/rights/what_are_the_entitlements_to_annual_leave

http://www.acas.co.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=955&p=0

 

[Climebear]

Good job RAF Bird doesn't moderate this thread, most of the recent posts are so Off TopicDT_Xtremez_34:

You're right Realist78; however, Weebl raises a valid point. I wonder how many others are being scr*wed like he appears to be. Any chance of the mods moving the posts relating to PHs and shift working into a new thread?

 

[BJW]

Whenever I see threads like this on the goat, and there are many in a similar vein, I despair at the p!ss poor man-management that so many people have to put up with. I am not referring here either to TG17 or the vagaries of JPA.

JSPs etc are there to guide us, we are actually required to apply a bit of common sense in their interpretation to suit local circumstances - such as shift workers in this case. How the f**k do so many so called managers expect to motivate their staff and get the best out of them if all they can do is blindly follow rules.

FFS

 

[Climebear]

You're right Realist78; however, Weebl raises a valid point. I wonder how many others are being scr*wed like he appears to be. Any chance of the mods moving the posts relating to PHs and shift working into a new thread?

Thanks MODSDT_Xtremez_30:


BJW - I couldn't agree more. In this case the JSP (and IBN 04/09) guidance is clear - commanders should aim to enable their personnel to get their full leave allowance. I don't think that it is a case of commanders blindly following rules as I have yet to find any 'rules' that state what they are doing.

 

[KingGuin]

Weebl any news from your Scribblies? I've spoken to a Chf Clk, 2 Sqn Scribblies at different Units and all are just as baffled as me. This got to be sorted so I can get back to Techie bating before anyone thinks I am being helpful.

 

[leave your hat on maam]

Having once served at a secret wiltshire airbase, the issue of leave and having leave deducted was always a headache. And as was mentioned there is nowhere written that said leave entitlment can be removed. It was pointed out to me at the time when i asked that PMA have washed their hands of the whole situation. It was something along the lines of station commanders policy as the ammount of days spent in work was less than a normal week of days week of nights routine. Altough the hours worked per month if you did the full 12 worked out to more. it was only in the last few years that you could use 1 day leave for 1 day off.

 

[Weebl]

Weebl any news from your Scribblies? I've spoken to a Chf Clk, 2 Sqn Scribblies at different Units and all are just as baffled as me. This got to be sorted so I can get back to Techie bating before anyone thinks I am being helpful.

I am on nights mate, question was raised last night and several suggestions were made as to where this policy was located, I could not find it in any of them.

It is being pushed up, the question should already have been asked of the Sqn Engineering management, next time I am on days at the same time as the Sqn Scribblies is next Wednesday.

 

[KingGuin]

Fellah, any joy?