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Sea kings aren't up to the job

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pueblos

Guest
I liked this line.... "The RAF says it is calling in extra engineering effort to improve the Sea King's serviceability rate."

Hmmmm, where from ???


BAe????

The thing is we know what’s wrong, but the highers either don’t want to know or are blind to the problems affecting the fleet… and not just the yellow hedgehoppers either.

Me thinks, three brass monkeys… See no ‘’problems’’, Hear about no ‘’problems’’ and don’t want to talk about the ‘’problems’’…
 
D

Douglas Bader's Right Leg

Guest
RAF Aircraft "Old and Unreliable" Shocker!

As far as the CoC is concerned SAR is way down the list of priorities from an operational standpoint. The importance of SAR cannot be underestimated obviously in terms of lives saved, but also from a PR point of view.

That said if we are given a choice between reliable, effective AT and a reliable, effective SAR force, I would go for AT every time. Ideally we shouldn't have to make these choices and should be able to rely on the Government providing sufficient funding for the force to be fit for purpose in all respects.

What is T* and C130K serviceability like at the moment?
 

TrenchardsLoveSock

Flight Sergeant
1,266
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Oh look, someone else who waits until he is out before blowing the whistle:pDT_Xtremez_32:

It's all very laudable to tell the press that lives are at risk now, but they were at risk when you waiting for your golden handshake too weren't they?

Why don't these people just fecking grow some?!?
 
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Douglas Bader's Right Leg

Guest
Oh look, someone else who waits until he is out before blowing the whistle:pDT_Xtremez_32:

It's all very laudable to tell the press that lives are at risk now, but they were at risk when you waiting for your golden handshake too weren't they?

Why don't these people just fecking grow some?!?

Maybe because it is now illegal for us to talk to the press and the concerns he passed up the CoC when he was in may have got no further than his Gp Capt?

I don't know the exact details of this case, but it is excrutiatingly difficult in this Service to pass your concerns up the CoC and get it further than DACOS level. Don't forget that repeated complaining is a career ruining strategy. This chap is only a Sqn Ldr, the time and place for making bold statements like this in service is when you are a 4*. Alas our 4*s are disinclined to be seen to stand up for us.
 
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Comms_Lad

Guest
Maybe because it is now illegal for us to talk to the press and the concerns he passed up the CoC when he was in may have got no further than his Gp Capt?

I don't know the exact details of this case, but it is excrutiatingly difficult in this Service to pass your concerns up the CoC and get it further than DACOS level. Don't forget that repeated complaining is a career ruining strategy. This chap is only a Sqn Ldr, the time and place for making bold statements like this in service is when you are a 4*. Alas our 4*s are disinclined to be seen to stand up for us.


With all due respect thats sh1t and you know it, he had every opportunity to complain to everyone. He was leaving what career was he going to ruin. It pi55es me off when you see these reports from Sqn Ldr (rtd), General (rtd) they could of done something when they were in, instead of making a quick bit of cash on the outside selling a story which makes us look worse in the publics eyes.

The public wont see this story the way we see it as a failing by the government to supply us with the cash to get the spares to keep the a/c serviceable. The public will just see that we are putting them in danger by not having adequate cover.
Rant off (im having a bad week in case anyone notices that I seem to be in Rant mode)
 
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Douglas Bader's Right Leg

Guest
With all due respect thats sh1t and you know it, he had every opportunity to complain to everyone. He was leaving what career was he going to ruin. It pi55es me off when you see these reports from Sqn Ldr (rtd), General (rtd) they could of done something when they were in, instead of making a quick bit of cash on the outside selling a story which makes us look worse in the publics eyes.

The public wont see this story the way we see it as a failing by the government to supply us with the cash to get the spares to keep the a/c serviceable. The public will just see that we are putting them in danger by not having adequate cover.
Rant off (im having a bad week in case anyone notices that I seem to be in Rant mode)

For all we know he may have complained to everyone but been ignored repeatedly. We are not in the habit of washing our dirty laundry in public and to make a public noise about something like this is illegal and potentially counter-productive. It is our most senior leadership who should be pointing out that we are undermanned and underfunded, whether they do that in private is questionable, but they do not do it often enough in public IMO.
 
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Rich_P

Guest
Isn't SAR going to be fully civilian operated (like the Air Ambulance) in the very near future anyway? :pDT_Xtremez_09:
 
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Heilan

Guest
SAR Engineering is going Civvy next year (supposedly!!). The aircrew will still be RAF though.
 
R

Rich_P

Guest
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-hmcg_rescue/mcga-hmcg-sar/dops_-_sar_helo_harmonisation.htm

However, the military SAR airframe, the Sea King helicopter, will reach the end of its useful life within the next 10 years and will need to be retired from service. The MCA’s Coastguard Rescue Helicopter contract ends in 2012. Therefore the UK Government is seeking to put in place a harmonised SAR helicopter capability for the UK for the future which will bring all SAR Helicopters for the UK under one contract, through a Private Finance Initiative. The new harmonised framework will deliver an at least as effective service as the current one whilst providing value for money for the taxpayer.

That's one reference to what I think says that they're making SAR completely civilian operated. Please say it ain't so. :pDT_Xtremez_09:
 
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I think its a shameful load of old bollocks.

In my time on SAR you could count on one hand the amount of occasions we were 'off state' . On the rare occasions it happened, it was usually a controlled situation, for instance another flight had full servicability and was therefore available to cover more than their share of jobs.

What this guy has done,possibly without realising it by questioning servicability, is show a complete lack of respect and appreciation for the engineers who have worked through meals ,breaks, xmas's, bank holidays, world cups etc and sleeping time - just to provide the likes of him with 2 servicable cabs.
And there will have been many,many occasions when those cabs were not needed all day (thank god), and the growbags will have taking them up 'training' flying over the houses of friends and relatives for a wave, or along beaches in the summer or maybe round london on live8 day etc. .......

I would bet if the **** really has ever hit the fan where 202 or 22 were without cabs or cover (and I can't believe it ever happened!) that it would be due to lack of spares or RAF self inflicted lack of manpower to work cabs.

That article has really pi$$ed me off. prick.

::/: ::/: ::/: ::/: ::/:
 

Teh Wal

Flight Sergeant
1,589
0
36
...What this guy has done,possibly without realising it by questioning servicability, is show a complete lack of respect and appreciation for the engineers who have worked through meals ,breaks, xmas's, bank holidays, world cups etc and sleeping time - just to provide the likes of him with 2 servicable cabs.
...
That article has really pi$$ed me off. prick.

You obviously never came across PC then?? He was my Flt Cmdr on SARTU back in '83 (IIRC) and is (was) one of the most respected and well-liked pilots in the SAR community, a true gent. There would seem to be little point in him lying about the state of the cabs seeing as anyone can get hold of the information that the BBC are quoting. What the BBC fail to mention (and no doubt PC mentioned it but has been ignored) is that we shuffle the cabs around from unit to unit if the situation deems it necessary. Typical media boll0x of cherry-picking the info that makes their article look better and ignoring anything that detracts from their exclusive! His quote about the whole of 202 being u/s at the same time is true, it happened about a month ago, BUT I can put hand on heart and say that it happens very, very, very rarely; in fact, now I think about it, in all my time up here that was the only time I remember it happening on the squadron. And it was only for an hour or so... and should we have needed to (i.e. for immediate life saving) we could have recovered at least one of our cabs (at ISL) by Limming it and been in the air rather sharpish - done it before and no doubt will do it again; my shift was awarded a "Well Done" (one of these AOC type award thingies) for going from 2 u/s cabs to 2 in the air within 45 minutes for a reported possible Herc crash back in '99 - the framed certificate hangs behind the line-desk should you wish to come and see it (go on, you know you want to :)). What the article doesn't mention is that this year we are on a bit of a high when it comes to shouts (we call 'em 'jobs'); I believe our job count, for this time of the year, is actually up on previous recent years so we are still meeting our mission despite the state of the aircraft. And by the way we are actually operational every second of every day - maybe we don't drop bombs on people or go out to dusty climes too often (unless you call MPA a dusty clime :)) but we do the job for real every day.

I've been on 202 up at ISL for many years and it's true that this year has seen an increase in unserviceability across the Fleet as a whole. What seems to be letting us down is not so much the actual airframe (tho it is getting old, and could do with a re-wire) but the components themselves - from ECUs to gearboxes to black boxes, etc, etc. A lot more of our depth maint is done in a civvy environment nowadays, whether this has a bearing on our serviceability rate or not I really wouldn't like to say. Spares are difficult to come by as well: with the increased workload of the Navy Sea King fleet in far away places it's understandable but very frustrating :(.

Not withstanding the comments by the BBC I'm extremely proud of what we achieve as a whole; I love my job and the challenges it presents (I'm grafter not a flyer by the way). Hence the reason I've PVR'd to continue working with them next year when the Engineering goes civvy. (Hmm, there's a thought thinking about another thread on here... I've PVR'd so I'm not showing commitment to the Service but I've PVR'd to continue in my current job thereby supporting the Service; how committed am I then?? :confused: :) Or maybe I should be committed... to Ward 6 in Doc Grays! :eek: )

Eventually the aim is for the whole of the rescue services in the UK to fall under one umbrella - SARH - SAR Harmonisation - thereby making it easier for command and control of all SAR assets unlike the current situation which is somewhat fractured, but that is quite some time away.
 
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MrMasher

Somewhere else now!
Subscriber
5,053
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I would love to comment on this, but the Engo today pointed to a notice in the T bar from somewhere higher about refraining from speaking on the subject and to direct all queries to MOD press officers!
However, if you've been on the goat for long enough and read between the lines you'll see lots of facts....................................:pDT_Xtremez_30:
 
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I have never met him mate, and I'll bow to your experience that he is one of the 'good guys'.
Been off SAR 2 years now, so things have obviously changed a bit, although I am still staggered that 202 went off state.
I just felt the article could have been construed as RAF inability to get cabs out ready for action. You know as well as I do, that the majority of engineers put heart and soul into getting the cabs out, and to see it summed up in a way that makes it sound like often we failed, just pushed the wrong buttons!

Good luck with your transition, I admire your commitment to the cause, and apologise if I came across 'lacking airmanship'
:pDT_Xtremez_06:
 

Rigga

Licensed Aircraft Engineer
1000+ Posts
Licensed A/C Eng
2,163
122
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Sticking my two-penn'oth in for what its worth - please shoot me down if I have this angle wrong.

During my 15 years on choppers - mainy big greenie things. I learned that yellow things always had the best of everything and the first shout in all things maintenance-wise. "We" could never get engines due to robs for better operational (yellow) needs, etc.

Now that there are "real operational needs" (green) elsewhere, and have been for the last few years, is it not surprising that the yellow gods have taken a back seat in the world of priorities? And Money too? Even maintenance staffing is pulled down to the bone - and possibly in preparation for transfer to the Civvie World of SAR Ops (Heaven forbid - NOT!) I don't see any problems with civil SAR Ops all over UK so why not put the remaining RAF Stock out to tender?

Personally, I think this is just another 'symptom' of drawdown and cost cuts, at home bases, manifesting itself in an organised retiree's complaint because (as pointed out earlier in this thread) he can't complain publicly whilst still in the Mob.

Waiting for the incoming...
 
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Sticking my two-penn'oth in for what its worth - please shoot me down if I have this angle wrong.

During my 15 years on choppers - mainy big greenie things. I learned that yellow things always had the best of everything and the first shout in all things maintenance-wise. "We" could never get engines due to robs for better operational (yellow) needs, etc.

Now that there are "real operational needs" (green) elsewhere, and have been for the last few years, is it not surprising that the yellow gods have taken a back seat in the world of priorities? And Money too? Even maintenance staffing is pulled down to the bone - and possibly in preparation for transfer to the Civvie World of SAR Ops (Heaven forbid - NOT!) I don't see any problems with civil SAR Ops all over UK so why not put the remaining RAF Stock out to tender?

Personally, I think this is just another 'symptom' of drawdown and cost cuts, at home bases, manifesting itself in an organised retiree's complaint because (as pointed out earlier in this thread) he can't complain publicly whilst still in the Mob.

Waiting for the incoming...


I don't think that you say anything worthy of being shot down mate - if we're in the business of prioritising (sp?) then the sand pit has gottaa be top of the list. I should think a supplier would be best qualified to explain the options available in a situation of aircraft tits up here and abroad.

One thing is though, remember in the 'big picture' SAR is there to pick up downed military aircrew, with no obligation to provide the service to the british public. So cilvianising shouldn't really be something that hasn't already got a dusty old plan in place somewhere in the governments drawers.

Frustrating to lose spares to other units, I know, but maybe played a small part in an important job for the SAR boys.
 

MrMasher

Somewhere else now!
Subscriber
5,053
0
0
Sticking my two-penn'oth in for what its worth - please shoot me down if I have this angle wrong.

During my 15 years on choppers - mainy big greenie things. I learned that yellow things always had the best of everything and the first shout in all things maintenance-wise. "We" could never get engines due to robs for better operational (yellow) needs, etc.

Now that there are "real operational needs" (green) elsewhere, and have been for the last few years, is it not surprising that the yellow gods have taken a back seat in the world of priorities? And Money too? Even maintenance staffing is pulled down to the bone - and possibly in preparation for transfer to the Civvie World of SAR Ops (Heaven forbid - NOT!) I don't see any problems with civil SAR Ops all over UK so why not put the remaining RAF Stock out to tender?

Personally, I think this is just another 'symptom' of drawdown and cost cuts, at home bases, manifesting itself in an organised retiree's complaint because (as pointed out earlier in this thread) he can't complain publicly whilst still in the Mob.

Waiting for the incoming...

In the last 6 years I have spent in the SeaKing world, both bays and 1st line the "greenies" and "greys" have always had priority over the "yellows gods".
That is Navy over RAF if thats what you are referring to? If not and your big greenie things are chinnies then what are you using apart from a few split pins,seals and hoists that SeaKings use that are so short in demand??

Whilst in the bays I regularly found myself churning out kit to Navy cabs even though they had their own bays.


SAR is going civvie. End of. It starts next year with us techies and will eventually go to tender for aircrews and different aircraft several years down the line.
 

Rigga

Licensed Aircraft Engineer
1000+ Posts
Licensed A/C Eng
2,163
122
63
Hi Masher,
There were helicopters prior to Seakings and Chinooks. I left the Mob before you started on helicopters! - "in the old days" and before Chinny's (which I spent 10 years on) leading up to the 90's - the RAF's yellow gods had first call on all the Gnomes and (mostly) first call on Gnome spares too. Thereby taking assets from two other RAF Fleet's stock (Whirlwind and Wessex both used the Mighty Gnome)

I am merely stating the fact that (as I see it) the SAR Fleet no longer appears to be the King and has had to take a seat remarkably further back from where it once was. Not a position it is used to and is probably keenly felt.

Military SAR is going civvy - I wholeheartedly agree - some of the writers here seem to deny the reasoning as to why. AW139 and S92 are almost ready for Ops here and are having their teething troubles as do all new types. Transfer of SAR air and ground crews will be as painful as all "Ends of Era's" are. There will be lots of Invitations, Pomp, Parades, Speeches, Celebrations and Parties.

But end they will.

I did the "End of's" at Tern Hill, Gutersloh and Laarbruch. All tremendous places, and undoubtedly forerunners of todays "Centres of Excellence", that you might never have visited, or even heard of.

Oh well...
 

Asbach

LAC
59
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0
Military SAR is going civvy - I wholeheartedly agree - some of the writers here seem to deny the reasoning as to why.


I've read with interest the previous comments.... and I can't understand why people are getting so wound up about the end of the MILITARY SAR era.......

Having been at the mighty 22E early in my career, I still remember asking the question why, as military SAR, we were not covering the 1st GW.... once the laughing stopped and I managed to get a word out of the more experienced members of the crewroom, I was informed that we cover the civvie numpties off the Norfolk coast and OCCASIONALLY the RAF who've dunked in the sea....

Will the fact that SAR is going civvie make any difference..? we've been (almost) civvie for years.
 
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