R.A.F.A, RAFB, SSAFA & Legion Any thoughts?

[AndyZ]

On a serious note..........
I am a life member of the RAFA and also an active member of The Royal British Legion (I am on local branch committee having served as Branch Secretary and Training Officer in the past). In both these Associations the membership situation is critical and the main reason is that fewer members are joining whilst serving in HM forces or after leaving and because now the "older" members are dying off, literally, there a fewer people to fill their places. What I would like to ask is this....firstly are any of you members of either association and, if you are then you are probably aware of the problems they are facing....secondly, those of you who are not members can I ask simply why not? I'm not having a dig I genuinely would like to know if there are any specific reasons why you are not members and if at all possible change your minds. Some may have reasons they dont want to discuss on open forum so I would be prepared to accept emails from you if you prefer to remain incognito. In both the Legion and the RAFA we are trying to address the shortage of members and actively seeking to swell the numbers. Quite honestly the Associations are getting too close to having to merge, thats not up for discussion here as that is a whole different debate. So if you could shed some light on the attitudes of serving personel towards the RAFA and the Legion I would be thankful. If any of you need further info on the Associations do not hesitate to contact me. I look forward to your comments. Finally I would like to iterate this is a serious matter and would prefer you keep this thread on topic. Thanks
AndyZ

 

[Dirk Thrust]

Yes Andy, I am a member of RAFA and have been for most of my time in the Airforce. Must admint I have not been an active one due to various reasons. Keep up the good work

 

[Oh sir]

Andy: Good post.

I'm a life member of RAFA. I did, at my last unit, act as a RAFALO.

To my shame, at my current one, I've not been to a meeting in 3 years. You've just reminded me of how much fun it is (and how important also) to go along and meet our forebears. I used to love chatting with the old guys and sharing views and hearing stories of old over a beer.
You've given me the kick up the arse I needed to get along to a meeting again soon. Thanks.

On the question of why some don't bother:
At my last place the RAFA meetings (As is common I believe) were held in the Sgts Mess. When I asked around my young lads as to why they wouldn't come along, it was implied that they would rather not put on a jacket, collar and tie, to get into the mess.
That was it.

The answer to that? I don't know I'm afraid, but it may give you an idea of the sort of people that we are dealing with at the "younger" levels of RAF society these days. Something has to change there, unfortunately I'm not the man with the answer.

 

[AndyZ]

Andy: Good post.

I'm a life member of RAFA. I did, at my last unit, act as a RAFALO.

To my shame, at my current one, I've not been to a meeting in 3 years. You've just reminded me of how much fun it is (and how important also) to go along and meet our forebears. I used to love chatting with the old guys and sharing views and hearing stories of old over a beer.
You've given me the kick up the arse I needed to get along to a meeting again soon. Thanks.

On the question of why some don't bother:
At my last place the RAFA meetings (As is common I believe) were held in the Sgts Mess. When I asked around my young lads as to why they wouldn't come along, it was implied that they would rather not put on a jacket, collar and tie, to get into the mess.
That was it.

The answer to that? I don't know I'm afraid, but it may give you an idea of the sort of people that we are dealing with at the "younger" levels of RAF society these days. Something has to change there, unfortunately I'm not the man with the answer.

Thanks Oh Sir, it would be good of you to return to the fold, I noted an oft quoted belief in your post held by a lot of the youngs ones that all the Legion and RAFA are is an institution for just pulling up a sandbag, donning flat cap and downing a few pints whilst telling storys about past service life with a bunch of OAPs, this as you are fully aware is far from the actual truth although it does happen but that is only a small part of what the Associations are about. There lies the rub I fear, that is we must get across to all serving and ex serving members of HM forces that it is not just for the "old" foggies out there but is for every one of them aswell and, if more become active they will then obviously rub shoulders and socialise with members of their age group. I am not going to go on about the aims and role of the associations here, I would hope that most would already know what that is and if not are perfectly capable of finding out that info (there are links on this website to the RAFA and Legion) but rather use this forum in making the members out there aware of what really goes on at meetings of these groups. As to the RAFA holding meetings in the SGTs mess well that is obviously self defeating in encouraging ORs in joining and should be addressed by them, not for me to try and solve that one. So if any members of the goat and that includes dependants are interested in finding out more please let me know and I,m sure that Oh Sir would be more than happy to point you in the right direction too.

 

[MingMong]

I don't know if i've had my head in the sand over the past few years, but I don't recall seeing RAFA or the legion actively trying to recruit people at all in recent times. Now you have bought up the subject, I will look into it, see what they can offer me, and probably more importantly what I can offer them.

I am sure that a lot of the problems that there are with recruitment to organisations is probably down to the same general apathy that has started to exist in the force as a whole. People's lives don't revolve entirely around the air force any more, it just seems to be a monday-friday (or shift) job for most, when they are out of work they become civvys again until the next week or shift cycle.

Thanks for taising the issue, AndyZ, I will look into it whan I return to work.

 

[skevans]

I don't know if i've had my head in the sand over the past few years, but I don't recall seeing RAFA or the legion actively trying to recruit people at all in recent times.

Sorry mate but I really do think you have had your head in the sand on this one. for one thing it's plastered all over the raf news, SRO's and your pay statement.

I have been a member of RAFA since I joined up, sometimes i thought about cancelling, but to be honest i treat it in the same vein as a savings scheme. I might put a little in now, but I might get lots out tomorrow!

 

[AndyZ]

I don't know if i've had my head in the sand over the past few years, but I don't recall seeing RAFA or the legion actively trying to recruit people at all in recent times. Now you have bought up the subject, I will look into it, see what they can offer me, and probably more importantly what I can offer them.

I am sure that a lot of the problems that there are with recruitment to organisations is probably down to the same general apathy that has started to exist in the force as a whole. People's lives don't revolve entirely around the air force any more, it just seems to be a monday-friday (or shift) job for most, when they are out of work they become civvys again until the next week or shift cycle.

Thanks for taising the issue, AndyZ, I will look into it whan I return to work.

Thanks MingMong

These are the comments that I was hoping to get on this thread, as to why locally there has been no evidence of recruitment I obviously would not know why but it is an all to familiar theme that we hear that serving members have no idea what the RAFA or Legion are doing in their area.

On every military base, all services, there are (or should be) appointed liaison officers for both Legion and RAFA and it would be there job to inform all servicemen to the fact that these Associations are there, if this is not happening then it is something I will bring up with the powers that be in the RAFA and Legion to see if it can be rectified. If anyone finds out that there is no L/O then please let me know via email and I will follow it up.

As to apathy I can well believe that, it was the same in my day (the 80s) I was an active member of the Brize RAFA held in a local pub (I was entertainment officer) and recruiting on camp was exceedingly tiresome due to apathy. A lot really believed it was just for the old codgers to meet and pull up a sandbag. Then, if I recall correctly we had around 250 members of the branch yet only 15 serving RAF, me included, admittedly the majority of the members did not attend meetings and functions but this was mainly because of their age and infirmity, we had about 50 actual active members plus spouses.

The main point of recruitment these days is to now fill the shoes of our aging membership without younger members the Legion or RAFA will die out as our members do, then who will be left to "Remember" and run the Poppy Appeal/Wings Appeal whose funds are raised for ex service personnel and their dependants AND serving service personnel and their dependants.

All I ask is go find out more about the Legion and RAFA in your area and get involved. Give it a go PLEASE.

 

[gemarriott]

I am an active member of the RBL, I used to do casework on behalf of SSAFA and assisted the RBL caseworker with a few sensitive cases. I have worked closely with most of the major military charities funding claims, requests for help etc. Most indeed are very good at helping ex members with the RN being particularly helpfule to their boys and girls.

I do however have a major beef with the RAFA and RAF benevolent funds over the way the convalescent homes are funded and places allocated. The indignity of the means test applied to applicants quite simply puts off a great number of those most eligible and in need from applying and lads to so many places being filled not by those in need of convalescance but simply by those on limited income as free holidays, some as many as 3 times a year at the charities expense. Frequently try as I might to get somebody to apply for a 2 week convalescent break after an operation or on recovery from cancer etc the means test put them off, pride is a big block. Surely if you served in the RAF, have genuine need of a convalscent break and the home has a place it should be give freely and there should be no need for a means test.

This sort of misuse of facilities allied to the rigid adherence of the means test is the main reason I no longer am a member of RAFA or the RAF Ben fund even though I am still a member of the Legion and continue to make an annual donation to the RAF ben fund.

 

[AndyZ]

I am an active member of the RBL, I used to do casework on behalf of SSAFA and assisted the RBL caseworker with a few sensitive cases. I have worked closely with most of the major military charities funding claims, requests for help etc. Most indeed are very good at helping ex members with the RN being particularly helpfule to their boys and girls.

I do however have a major beef with the RAFA and RAF benevolent funds over the way the convalescent homes are funded and places allocated. The indignity of the means test applied to applicants quite simply puts off a great number of those most eligible and in need from applying and lads to so many places being filled not by those in need of convalescance but simply by those on limited income as free holidays, some as many as 3 times a year at the charities expense. Frequently try as I might to get somebody to apply for a 2 week convalescent break after an operation or on recovery from cancer etc the means test put them off, pride is a big block. Surely if you served in the RAF, have genuine need of a convalscent break and the home has a place it should be give freely and there should be no need for a means test.

This sort of misuse of facilities allied to the rigid adherence of the means test is the main reason I no longer am a member of RAFA or the RAF Ben fund even though I am still a member of the Legion and continue to make an annual donation to the RAF ben fund.

Thanks for your reply gemarriott
I personally cannot comment on this at this stage as I have had very little to do with Welfare, but it is a point I shall bring up with our regional Welfare officer and will get some response to this. The points you bring up to me are alarming to say the least and if as you stated is the case I will find out why this is happening. I do know that means testing was brought upon us by the Charities Commission but thats as much as I know, I will find out more though and shall report back any findings. In my area (south west Wales) we are very successful with our welfare cases, RBL that is, as we have a very good welfare team that are keen and on the ball...not the same in many areas of the UK alas and the reason...lack of active members to carry out welfare work and as this is the core element of the Legion and RAFA thats a really sad situation and means many people are missing out on real help purely down to lack of manpower (does this sound familiar!!!)

 

[MingMong]

Sorry mate but I really do think you have had your head in the sand on this one. for one thing it's plastered all over the raf news, SRO's and your pay statement.

Maybe you are right skevans, but to be honest, once I read the figures on my pay statement these days i'm generally too confused to notice anything else, I don't read the RAF news, I think it is completely out of touch and a waste of trees ( a different thread maybe) and I've never noticed it in SRO's, but these days with them being online, I never read the attachments, I just read the main SRO section.

To be honest, if these are the ways that the organisations are promoting themselves, they are pretty inefficient, I would hazard that the majority wouldn't even notice if there was an advert in any of the above mentioned sources.

But as I said in my first reply, I will definately do a little research when I get beck in work.

 

[AndyZ]

Sorry mate but I really do think you have had your head in the sand on this one. for one thing it's plastered all over the raf news, SRO's and your pay statement.

I have been a member of RAFA since I joined up, sometimes i thought about cancelling, but to be honest i treat it in the same vein as a savings scheme. I might put a little in now, but I might get lots out tomorrow!

Thats a good attitude skevans a few more thinking like that would help, its very true that one day you just may need the help of RAFA/SSAFA/Legion always wise to plan ahead......I was not aware of the circulation of info via pay chits, RAF news and SROs as obviously I dont have access to any of them now....but at least they are trying to get the message out but alas as is proven by MingMong maybe the message just isnt getting through....is it just the RAFA that is mentioned or are the Legion and SSAFA covered too? and is RAFBF still deducted from pay each month voluntarily or mandatory?

 

[gemarriott]

Thanks for your reply gemarriott
I personally cannot comment on this at this stage as I have had very little to do with Welfare, but it is a point I shall bring up with our regional Welfare officer and will get some response to this. The points you bring up to me are alarming to say the least and if as you stated is the case I will find out why this is happening. I do know that means testing was brought upon us by the Charities Commission but thats as much as I know, I will find out more though and shall report back any findings. In my area (south west Wales) we are very successful with our welfare cases, RBL that is, as we have a very good welfare team that are keen and on the ball...not the same in many areas of the UK alas and the reason...lack of active members to carry out welfare work and as this is the core element of the Legion and RAFA thats a really sad situation and means many people are missing out on real help purely down to lack of manpower (does this sound familiar!!!)

Siounds very familiar. I started doing one morning a week and within a month of being qualified as a caseworker the load had extended to 2 mornings and 5 evenings. Unfortunatelt very little of the work was of real value as the very few genuinely needy cases came through the door. the majority were repeate business so to speak. Every two years they pop in for a new carpet, a fridge, a washing machine etc not of need but out of habit and because they knew they could. As you know we are trained and expected to be non judgemental and I admit I find that impossible.

I'll give you a couple of for instances.

A guy comes in pleading poverty and rotten window frames. I start filling the forms in, his service amounted to 3 days as a boy bugler aged 15 in the Marines. I go to his house to do the house visit. I park next to the year old volvo estate and walk past the new caravan over the freshly laid blockpaved drive. I am shown to the lounge by his elegantly attired wife and served tea in a crown derby tea service worth more than my car. I sit on the antique leather chesterfield filling in his form. he claims to have nothing more than his and his wife's pensions coming in. He asks for £1500 for 2 new windows and for him and his wife to be sent on holiday. I have no option but to fill in the forms and send them off . Net result the Navy award him the money for his windos, the Marines send £500 for a holiday. i ring to tell him, no reply. 2 weeks later after several attempts we finally contact him and arrange for him to come and collect the money for the windows and sort out booking a holiday for him. He has the nerve to moan about the holiday money not being enough for what they wanted. when asked why we couldn't contact him he had the gall to admit he had been in Greece visiting a relative.

Later the same day I visited an 86 year old Ex RAF sumpy, served on stirlings, Lancasters and Wellingtons throughout WW2. His wife around the same age works tirelessly for SSAFA and the RBL as well as being secretary and caseworker for these she works in citizens advice and is a school governer. The sumpy had just come out of hospital for the fifth time in the past couple of years after treatment for prostate cancer, his wife suffers angina,high blood pressure and rheumatoid arthritis and recently had a bad fall. I suggested they applied for convalescance after a bit of persuading they did. Because the gent had a modest occupational pension the RAF Ben Convalescant home charged them in excess of £5oo for their two week break. He had been a member of both the rAF ben fund and RAFA for over half a century. Both now would benefit from a mobility scooter but neither are prepared to face the indignity of the means test, the old gentleman is certainly eligible fo pension credit but steadfastly refuses to claim it simply down to his loathing of the means test.

The sheer inequality of these 2 cases were sufficient for me to stop case working as I found it increasing difficult to be non judgemental. I do however maintain my contacts and my interest in helping those in need and will always help people to make the right contacts if asked but I am afraid my caseworking days are behind me.

 

[AndyZ]

Siounds very familiar. I started doing one morning a week and within a month of being qualified as a caseworker the load had extended to 2 mornings and 5 evenings. Unfortunatelt very little of the work was of real value as the very few genuinely needy cases came through the door. the majority were repeate business so to speak. Every two years they pop in for a new carpet, a fridge, a washing machine etc not of need but out of habit and because they knew they could. As you know we are trained and expected to be non judgemental and I admit I find that impossible.

I'll give you a couple of for instances.

A guy comes in pleading poverty and rotten window frames. I start filling the forms in, his service amounted to 3 days as a boy bugler aged 15 in the Marines. I go to his house to do the house visit. I park next to the year old volvo estate and walk past the new caravan over the freshly laid blockpaved drive. I am shown to the lounge by his elegantly attired wife and served tea in a crown derby tea service worth more than my car. I sit on the antique leather chesterfield filling in his form. he claims to have nothing more than his and his wife's pensions coming in. He asks for £1500 for 2 new windows and for him and his wife to be sent on holiday. I have no option but to fill in the forms and send them off . Net result the Navy award him the money for his windos, the Marines send £500 for a holiday. i ring to tell him, no reply. 2 weeks later after several attempts we finally contact him and arrange for him to come and collect the money for the windows and sort out booking a holiday for him. He has the nerve to moan about the holiday money not being enough for what they wanted. when asked why we couldn't contact him he had the gall to admit he had been in Greece visiting a relative.

Later the same day I visited an 86 year old Ex RAF sumpy, served on stirlings, Lancasters and Wellingtons throughout WW2. His wife around the same age works tirelessly for SSAFA and the RBL as well as being secretary and caseworker for these she works in citizens advice and is a school governer. The sumpy had just come out of hospital for the fifth time in the past couple of years after treatment for prostate cancer, his wife suffers angina,high blood pressure and rheumatoid arthritis and recently had a bad fall. I suggested they applied for convalescance after a bit of persuading they did. Because the gent had a modest occupational pension the RAF Ben Convalescant home charged them in excess of £5oo for their two week break. He had been a member of both the rAF ben fund and RAFA for over half a century. Both now would benefit from a mobility scooter but neither are prepared to face the indignity of the means test, the old gentleman is certainly eligible fo pension credit but steadfastly refuses to claim it simply down to his loathing of the means test.

The sheer inequality of these 2 cases were sufficient for me to stop case working as I found it increasing difficult to be non judgemental. I do however maintain my contacts and my interest in helping those in need and will always help people to make the right contacts if asked but I am afraid my caseworking days are behind me.

Cases like that are all too common I'm afraid and to be frank I do not blame you for walking, I believe I would have done the same. I personally have been on the receiving end of welfare only as much as they helped my claim for WP which until they intervened I was unaware I was entitled to it. I now am trying my damnedest to put back what I have received by helping others claim what they are entitled too of which the DSS do nothing to help...unless you ask they wont tell you....I would not for many years apply for DLA because I firmly believed I was not disabled enough (in fact truth be known I would not accept I was disabled) It took a lot of persuasion of local case worker and my partner to get me to drop the too proud to ask for help attitude and claim for what I was entitled to. So I fully empathise with many "clients" when they are too proud to take handouts.
Means testing is cruel and invasive and quite understandable that many will not claim for that reason.
I do hope that others reading this are not put off and stay away from The Legion or RAFA and offer their services which is so badly needed....I would like to emphasise that welfare case work is vital and the core element of the Legions' and RAFAs' existence. Just by joining one or both of the Legion or RAFA would expand the membership as there are many other ways you can help at Branch level for instance committee work or entertainments allowing other long standing members to be able to concentrate on welfare. Maybe the cases you have outlined have shown what the ex service associations are really busy dealling with an ever increasing workload with an ever decreasing membership and you all know what that feels like in todays HM forces.

 

[metimmee]

I was a member of the local Scottish Legion for about 2 years. Never really felt welcome to tell you the truth. The blue-rinse brigade used to turn their noses up at us young uns (mid 30s at the time). Also, most of the ones that turned their noses up had never had any direct association with the forces, they were just members that had been introduced to the Club.

Maybe when I'm posted I'll give it another shot.

 

[AndyZ]

I was a member of the local Scottish Legion for about 2 years. Never really felt welcome to tell you the truth. The blue-rinse brigade used to turn their noses up at us young uns (mid 30s at the time). Also, most of the ones that turned their noses up had never had any direct association with the forces, they were just members that had been introduced to the Club.

Maybe when I'm posted I'll give it another shot.

Many Clubs can be like that unfortunately but the majority of clubs (those that are left that is) are very welcoming, earlier this year I was fortunate enough to be in Cyprus and popped into the Legion club in Limassol, we were accepted and hosted fantastically. The majority of the Legion work is done at Branch level and most branches do not have their own club so usually meet in local pubs or clubs and sometimes on camp too. I am sure that you will not find the same type of welcome further afield, if you do I would like to know about. I am pleased that you are willing to give it another go, thank you.

 

[Tashy_Man]

Many Clubs can be like that unfortunately but the majority of clubs (those that are left that is) are very welcoming, earlier this year I was fortunate enough to be in Cyprus and popped into the Legion club in Limassol, we were accepted and hosted fantastically. The majority of the Legion work is done at Branch level and most branches do not have their own club so usually meet in local pubs or clubs and sometimes on camp too. I am sure that you will not find the same type of welcome further afield, if you do I would like to know about. I am pleased that you are willing to give it another go, thank you.

Hmmm i thought "Det personnel " were not allowed down to Limassol....

However to get back on thread...i used to be a member many years ago at Penarth Branch...used to pop in on leave etc but all were so ignorant and full of themselves i gave up after a few years....never been in a RAFA club since....still pay BF through pay as most do but after reading some of these means tested stories, if you got a RAF pension will we get anything if we need it ??

 

[AndyZ]

Hmmm i thought "Det personnel " were not allowed down to Limassol....

However to get back on thread...i used to be a member many years ago at Penarth Branch...used to pop in on leave etc but all were so ignorant and full of themselves i gave up after a few years....never been in a RAFA club since....still pay BF through pay as most do but after reading some of these means tested stories, if you got a RAF pension will we get anything if we need it ??

Not on det...on Holiday I'm ex RAF (I take it thats a recent restriction)
All cases are dealt with on merit, and as I'm not an expert on welfare I,m not sure about the pension problem.....I will however look it up and get back to you soonest. What I do know of the scheme (Legion) is that help is first asked for from the persons service or regiment then any DSS help that can be found and then finally from the poppy appeal. The RAFA welfare scheme does almost the same except obviously from their own funds and RAFBF and not the poppy appeal. SSAFA is also involved in most cases too.
Not all RAFA clubs are the sameand generally welcome serving members of the RAF. Things have changed dramatically in a lot of cases in both RAFA and Legion clubs and most now would welcome anyone as most are struggling to keep afloat.
It would be sad that you would give up on the RAFA from experiencing one club and their attitudes, I would ask you to try go to a local branch or club and give them a go.

 

[Tashy_Man]

Andy...not too sure if we have a "LOCAL" BRANCH (lossie) but if not in the village and it is close by what would be the point ? (not gonna go to drink coke and if it is any distance then just not gonna drink drive)

 

[Tashy_Man]

Not on det...on Holiday I'm ex RAF (I take it thats a recent restriction)

Sorry i keep forgetting youe Ex....wanna rejoin ?? we got loads of places made available due to lean....lol

Limassol thing only from what i hear before my lot went there last week....grrrr bet their having a great time and i'm stuck here...pish

 

[Major Geek]

I have been a member of the RAFA since my first posting. We used to use the local club rather than the NAAFI. Although the old geezers were pretty strict on the door they were welcoming enough and we used to have some good nights out. Not been in one since, though I am sure I will use one when I leave. If you are not made to feel welcome then say something. Surely we have a right to be members and once a member you have a right to voice your opinion and change things. If you are not welcomed then they are cutting their nose off to spite their face.

As an aside I have been in a Legion club a number of times over the years and found it to be very smokey. Hopefully this will have improved due to healthier attitudes and new laws being introduced.