Paperwork, Arrrrrrgh

[bluetonic]

the date when signed will give any board the ability to back track and ascertain amendment state, so the 'airman should not be condemened at the board of enquiry' for that ommission (Assuming of course he followed the procedure fully!!!)

and if the AP wasn't at the correct amendment state for that date?Who's responsible? hence the reason for signing with the state clearly marked, it's making you check.

its belt an braces. Again the individual, 2nd and 3rd sig are responsible for ensuring the AP is at the right state, and if work has been carried out to the old state, they are gonna get both barrels at the board.

 

[Max Reheat]

and if the AP wasn't at the correct amendment state for that date?Who's responsible? hence the reason for signing with the state clearly marked, it's making you check.

its belt an braces. Again the individual, 2nd and 3rd sig are responsible for ensuring the AP is at the right state, and if work has been carried out to the old state, they are gonna get both barrels at the board.

How do we know its at the correct AL state? Its what is in front of us on the computer screen at the time. If the AL state is wrong its down to the person who updates electronic manuals, not the person writing it on the back of the job card.

 

[bluetonic]

http://www.jap100a-01.mod.uk/Jap(d)/JAP 100A 01 Chap 7.2.htm#_Toc234295346

 

[Little Tronk]

http://www.jap100a-01.mod.uk/Jap(d)/JAP 100A 01 Chap 7.2.htm#_Toc234295346

That links to a JAP dated Dec 2001 so who is now wrong!

MPs, when printed have always been annoted with date & AL state as that is not printed - this fact is not in dispute.

 

[Max Reheat]

Well I've now read the JAP while on leave, sad.

And I feel better for having done so, 1st off it says AL state is to be used when MP's are followed for complex jobs which I've been saying all along. Many of our jobs are done IAW chapters and job guides not MP's.

2nd it says the 2nd signature is to ensure the correct AL state is used WHERE APPLICABLE, chapters and job guides are not applicable the way I read it. Might be a bit of a grey area that one

 

[Teh Wal]

People in docs positions should be setting the standards and passing on the information to the engineers, like you say its your subject of expertise. We have enough to do without referring to the JAP for everything we do and not just paperwork is the issue....
Even with the best will in the world we aren't all experts in other peoples fields.
And once again to my original point, paperwork today has got beyond ridiculous.

Whilst I sense and indeed suffer from the same frustrations as yourself (I'm no lover of the horrible purple covered Publication) I'm picking up a whiff of "It's not my responsibilty, it's someone elses problem" in your posts. Please believe me when I say that the very, very last thing I wish to do is to lecture or patronise you but as a SNEC it is down to you to know these things, to set and pass on good working practices and standards. The JAP is a very grey document and there is lots of stuff in it but it is relatively straightforward to cherry pick the bits that are important to you and the environment you work in.
I agree that it is up to the docs/AP custodian to ensure that any amendments which are important to the way you work are brought to the workforces' attention but you should have a good awareness of what the regulations and rules are from the outset otherwise where is your baseline? Again it's part and parcel of being a professional.
My apologies for sounding like I'm on my high horse, it's not my intention at all.

 

[Max Reheat]

I just read through the JAP link and I'm quite happy with my level of knowledge on it, nothing really new to me there at all, maybe a couple of changes in terminology but its pretty much what was taught to me on TMT2 3 years ago

If anything this thread is bumping my post count up

 

[Teh Wal]

That links to a JAP dated Dec 2001 so who is now wrong!...

Hmmm, yup I posted a link to the wrong order, Doh!! However it's at the latest amendment state, see here --> http://www.jap100a-01.mod.uk/Jap(d)/jap100a02titlepage.htm

 

[Hammer and stillson]

Just to confuse a bit more, you can use the issue number instead of the AL state.

 

[Little Tronk]

I just read through the JAP link and I'm quite happy with my level of knowledge on it, nothing really new to me there at all, maybe a couple of changes in terminology but its pretty much what was taught to me on TMT2 3 years ago

If anything this thread is bumping my post count up

Mate, be careful reading the version of the JAP referred to in this thread, I think the link refers to a Dec 2001 version.

 

[MrMasher]

Well I've now read the JAP while on leave, sad.

And I feel better for having done so, 1st off it says AL state is to be used when MP's are followed for complex jobs which I've been saying all along. Many of our jobs are done IAW chapters and job guides not MP's.

2nd it says the 2nd signature is to ensure the correct AL state is used WHERE APPLICABLE, chapters and job guides are not applicable the way I read it. Might be a bit of a grey area that one

They arent job guides, they are procedures and they are your authority to carry out the task which is why you must reference it.

Where applicable is exactly that. If it's in the topic 1 you quote that, if it's in a technical instruction you quote that, if it isn't detailed anywhere you usually cherry pick some bits from the applicable procedures where applicable.

 

[Max Reheat]

They arent job guides, they are procedures and they are your authority to carry out the task which is why you must reference it.

Where applicable is exactly that. If it's in the topic 1 you quote that, if it's in a technical instruction you quote that, if it isn't detailed anywhere you usually cherry pick some bits from the applicable procedures where applicable.

There are procedures and there are procedures with complex instructions requiring things done in a certain order, an MP.

I shouldn't think changing a set of mag plugs on a tonka is a complex procedure requiring an AL state although we do it IAW

 

[MrMasher]

Regardless. The AP you work to is your authority for doing the task, that's why you reference it.

So would you do a mag plug change just IAW "Vol 1" because it isn't complex?

What if the procedure changed and you were away without access to the latest AL state of AP and your jet crashed? Because you'd signed IAW chapter and verse without AL state, you'd be getting the blame because you can't prove that you were unaware of the change. If you'd signed IAW the AL state you had at the time you'd probably get away with it because you knew no better.

You can argue all you like but it's in the JAP. Our unit has fully taken this on board, well most have anyway and I think most other units have.

As for the excuse of DAP's (which I've yet to see having worked 4 different aircraft types) then highlight it to your quality people, raise a MEMS. Sitting on the goat won't help you cover your back.

 

[Teh Wal]

Mate, be careful reading the version of the JAP referred to in this thread, I think the link refers to a Dec 2001 version.

Mate, you're confusing the Edition date with the issue number or Al state. See here --> http://www.jap100a-01.mod.uk/Jap(d)/jap100a02titlepage.htm

And you are refering to the JAP 100A-01 which has an edition date of Dec 2001 and is at issue 21 (Al21). This thread (over the past page or 2) is mainly refering to JAP100A-02 which is edition dated Dec 2002, Al 21.

 

[Max Reheat]

Its your units interpretation of the JAP. I would change mag plugs IAW chap 47-20 paras 2.24-2.28 if memeory serves me right, its been a while. That would be taken direct from trilogy, written on the card and signed and dated. I'm signing for having read the job guide and completing the task on that day so why write the AL state in there too if I've signed and dated as having done so?

If I changed an engine I'd raise an MP40-10/1/2/3 The front cover would have a 707MC on it in which I'd enter the AL state. Inside it would be lots of entries saying such and such item removed IAW chap blah blah, no mention of an AL or space to write one. The PPMWO would also have no mention of AL's unless an MP was involved.

I'd suggest you raise a MEMS stating how you waste time writing AL's on simple maintenance tasks because the JAP says its for MPs involving complex tasks where applicable.

We could go around in circles all night on this, you think you're right and having read the JAP and never had a job card rejected for it I think I'm right. I'm not going to bother arguing anymore.

 

[MrMasher]

I didn't think we were arguing. I thought we were having a discussion.
If that's the way you feel then that's your right.
Enjoy the rest of your leave.

 

[Tin basher]

What this thread needs is the arrival of Capt SlogDT_Xtremez_14:.

My post, number 7 of this thread

Cap'n Slog would be proud of us (TB...... stfu before you start!)

Off Topic Ex S&P Do try and keep up old chap Off Topic

 

[Little Tronk]

Regardless. The AP you work to is your authority for doing the task, that's why you reference it.

So would you do a mag plug change just IAW "Vol 1" because it isn't complex?

What if the procedure changed and you were away without access to the latest AL state of AP and your jet crashed? Because you'd signed IAW chapter and verse without AL state, you'd be getting the blame because you can't prove that you were unaware of the change. If you'd signed IAW the AL state you had at the time you'd probably get away with it because you knew no better.

You can argue all you like but it's in the JAP. Our unit has fully taken this on board, well most have anyway and I think most other units have.

As for the excuse of DAP's (which I've yet to see having worked 4 different aircraft types) then highlight it to your quality people, raise a MEMS. Sitting on the goat won't help you cover your back.

Of course you can prove it, you are on det and all sorts of evidence (personnel and technical) will support this! - Unless your MOB sends you amendments immediately, you can only use what you have!! Unless you do a job that has never been done before, any board of enquiry would hard pressed to blame anyone if they followed an electronic procedure 'in good faith'. Writing in the AL state will confirm that it was wrong, but if still done 'in good faith' then what?

DIGITAL AIR PUBLICATIONS - If your 'APs' are electronic then they should be reffered to as DAPs.

 

[Rigga]

Forgot who said it right on the first page, but:
"we are getting our hands tied behind our backs with all this cr@p, I'm now seeing paperwork take twice as long as jobs and thats wrong, total waste of manpower."

All this means is that the paperwork you should have been doing is now being more forcefully "required". Your "missing time" was always borrowed and isnt now owed to you.

I left the RAF in 1999 after years of trying to get my Teams to sign up IAW and apparently getting nowhere. I think its nice to see someone actually making people do the right thing!

I've been working in 145 MROs since leaving the mob - and I cant remember adding AL states to my paperwork as , quite rightly, the date you sign should give the AL state away (the company should know when it received the new data and what data it issues to aircraft projects) - Edited bit - And I dont require it - and I'm the QA Manager.

Civvy paperwork will include all the Procedures, information e-mails and notes used to make maintenance agreements and decisions, all the instructions for checks and all the drawings used for each and every modification and repair and all the Forms 1 (like a 731 but is also a legal release of the part or assy to service) for all the parts used too. The history of all parts is known back to the manufacturer and their Batch Numbers and each part is under quarantine controls up to the point of installation. And all this information is recorded on Job cards.

This amounts to about three times the paperwork of a similar sized RAF aircraft (two seat or 200 seat) - but is done in the same time or less than I remember coordinating job cards. (I didnt do 'puters in the RAF)

Finally, everything civil MRO's do (and don't do) is costed and billed to someone and a profit (however little) is made. (no profit=no job) That even boils down to team leaders project budgets and the mechanics on the shop floor knowing the cost of bolts and o-rings. Sometimes you can watch your Bonus dissapear into the Scrap Bin.

Luckily for you, most of the RAFs paperwork is destroyed after a few months or years of storage. So, unluckily, you will never know what has been kept or what is still available to the BOI.

Make your paperwork honest, complete and legal.

Whatever happened to "The Job's not done 'til the paperwork's finished!"

Remember - its your neck...not your boss's. Just like its my Licence, not my boss's.

 

[MrMasher]

You take your chances however you like, I'll be complying with the JAP thanks. I've seen what BOI's look for in their hunt and I've how witch hunts go as well.

I know what DAP's are but thanks for the explanation.
As for Trilogy, I have no interest, it's a Tonka thing. But I would seek advice from QCIT or even MAA at Wyton on the issues raised in here if I worked with it.