IntO still a worthwhile and fulfilling career?

[Melchett01]

Right, no names, no pack drill - keeping this very anonymous due to the obvious sensitivities behind the topic. The question seemingly on many IntOs minds that would never be able to be asked in an open forum i.e. the Branch Conference without causing individuals disproportionate amounts of hassle - does the OSB(Int) specialization still offer a worthwhile career?

I have been thinking about this very point for a while now, and at first thought it might just be me becoming a bit jaded. However, atmospherics from around the branch seem to indicate a growing feeling that what jobs are on offer fall into the categories of either being uninspiring or a complete thrashing - how many times have you looked at the appointments register and come up with more jobs you want to avoid than do - with these posts seemingly interspersed with the OOAs for the same people.

With this in mind, what is the general opinion on the Int specialization being able to continue to provide a worthwhile career with professionally fulfilling postings and a viable career?

I for one seem to be stuck on the ops treadmill. 6 OOAs in 7 years (FU& NFU), with postings that are starting to leave me feeling professionally and personally unfulfilled. I feel more and more frustrated with general impression that I am doing nothing other than fighting fires on a daily basis, equipped with little more than a small bucket of water full of holes, which is hardly a recipe for job satisfaction. Career development in terms of courses, post-grad study etc seems to be restricted to those who have contacts / mates in the right places, namely AWC / PJHQ. Career management from ACOS Manning seems to now be encompassed by one of 2 phrases - "it will be good for your profile" or "needs of the Service" with little consideration to an individual's professional, personal or family aspirations whilst the promotion system offers little encouragement for individuals approaching that point in their careers. And even if you do pick up, there appears to be little else on the cards other than an even harder thrashing than you were getting in your previous rank.

What do other people think, or is it just me? I am ready for a fair amount of abuse from this, but from talking around the bazaars, many of us would appear to be feeling the same. The obvious option is to PVR, but for many that isn't an option, and indeed would be little more than the Branch just washing its hands of people rather than trying to get to the bottom of what is wrong. Is there any way of fixing the Branch or are we stuck with what we have got for the duration?

 

[Witty_Banter]

Point taken?

Point taken?

Considering it took 3 weeks for anyone to answer, and the first person to answer your question isn't even and IntO, then I would imagine that either your question has answered itself or that you are alone in, perhaps not your train of thought, but your maybe alone in your trade amongst the users of this site.

I can confirm that similar thoughts echo through the enlisted version of your world, and that for most of those within the props and chevrons world they are getting sh*t on from a greater height and in greater frequency, and certainly for a considerably smaller monthly fee.

Or you could just take it that nobody really cares because you obviously earn far too much to be whinging about ANYTHING.... DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[Cat of Shadows]

Death of a Branch..........Death of a Service

Death of a Branch..........Death of a Service

Well, it's been a while since I graced the hallow halls of e-goat, but a colleague of ours informed me of this thread and I thought a timely return may be in order.

Firstly, until this year I would have considered myself fortunate with the way my career in this community has gone. Never asked for anything but seemed to get what I would have liked if I had been approached. However, there is very firmly a wind of change within the Armed Forces as whole, certainly within the RAF and definitely within the OSB (Int) world; sadly, I do not agree in any way that where the Service and our branch is concerned that it is for the betterment of anyone except those fortunate chosen few!!

Put simply the branch is dying on its feet, because the senior management seem hell bent on securing their own positions by surrounding themselves with the usual mix of 'yes' men and Sooth Sayers, whilst firmly turning their backs on the individuals who helped to get them to their lofty positions in the first place.

Leadership/strong leaders are few and far between in our branch because anyone with any ability to lead effectively is seen as a threat by those same 'yes' men and undermined and backstabbed at the earliest opportunity. Sadly extreme nepotism reigns supreme in the Int World and it does so with little care as to whether you can do your job or not!!

Lastly, if you think this is just a rambling.....(which it probably is, but I'm entitled to say what I like here), take a look at the RAF News dated 15 Jan 10 and read through the New Year Honours List. If you do not believe that our branch is incapable of rewarding, leading and managing its people, then try looking for and RAF Int O in the list. Look hard, real hard for the people who have been recognised for having done 6 Op tours in 7 years, or for the Int O who was recognised by the AOC for having contributed directly to the safety of RAF operational output in some of the most hospitable operations the Service has operated under since the Korean Conflict.

If you find one, then you can come back to me and say that things are OK and that the branch has a future.

Later Insert: I should have added that whilst reading the New Years Honours List, you will realise that pretty much every other trade and branch in the Service is represented at some level - that for me just about says it all!

Personally I think we are more than broken. We have traded all our JOs goodwill and we are now a non-entity within the Service, controlled through proxy by the GD branch. A branch however we should never have left only to be swallowed into obscurity by the joke that is the Ops Spt Branch concept.

Come back at me all you like....I really do not care; never thought I would ever hear myself say that, but there you have it. This was once a truly great Service, ours was once a great branch with a bright and exciting future..........not anymore.

 

[Sonic]

What is there to say.........?

What is there to say.........?

Witty: it took 3 weeks before you replied, no one else did (do you really think this is anonymous?) but you can bet most of the IntO's are thinking the same, it’s not whining, there was too much truth in those wise words from Melchett01.
Cat: nice return to the threads, and agree with all you have said, unfortunately I do not see much hope for the future as it stands, the next conference figures may show how people feel if it is not a 3-line whip (which may up the figures slightly - there’s always a way round it).
It might turn out to be fun and go watch the depression deepen as we are told there is no scope for improvement as no-one has a vision beyond the next cut’n’paste article and no manpower to look at anything anyway.

DT_Xtremez_37:

 

[Crabbity Ann]

I can confirm that similar thoughts echo through the enlisted version of your world, and that for most of those within the props and chevrons world they are getting sh*t on from a greater height and in greater frequency, and certainly for a considerably smaller monthly fee.

Agreed.

Sadly extreme nepotism reigns supreme in the Int World and it does so with little care as to whether you can do your job or not!!
....Personally I think we are more than broken.
....I really do not care; never thought I would ever hear myself say that, but there you have it.

A particularly sore subject for me at the mo given some of the people I work with.
Though sad for you, in a way it's oddly comforting to know that while I'm being shat on from aforementioned great height, the one doing the ****ting is probably just as ****ed off as I am. DT_Xtremez_31:

Sorry, nothing constructive to add, it's ****, end of.

 

[Cat of Shadows]

Cat: nice return to the threads, and agree with all you have said, unfortunately I do not see much hope for the future as it stands, the next conference figures may show how people feel if it is not a 3-line whip (which may up the figures slightly - there’s always a way round it).

Thanks Sonic, have time to kill a bit now, so seems like a good way to pass it, coming back on here.

I for one will not be at the branch conference this year as it doesn't fit with my movements between coming home and new posting; so they can 3-line whip all they like, this callsign will not be attending. And just before some of you come back at me about.....well if you're that hacked off with everything, why don't you say it at the conference.....well the simple answer is, it's always being said at the conference and the conference chooses to ignore it year on year as JO rumblings - so in essence, what's the point??

And anyway, my family and our house move are by far the more important thing now, not some broken promises made in an attempt to appease at the conference.

Wish someone would grow a back bone and just tell us the truth, we are, after all, employed in this community to think and understand and analyse......doesn't stop when we aren't in front of a work desk......most commonly made mistake by the hierarchy.

Know your audience!!!DT_Xtremez_25:

 

[Sonic]

Broken Branch

Broken Branch

Cat,
Like you, I will not be at the conf, I am sure there will be nothing new there.
I have not heard anything about it yet, I was just assuming we may have one! I guess if the branch want us there they will be in touch eventually, but hey, I have other things going on and good luck with the move, hope it brings a slightly better outlook than the end of last year!
Sorry Off Topic a little there.....Off Topic

If we start to think about looking after our people, we might build a future worth staying in for(for those who can leave), it’s all about credibility which we need at all levels but are not allowed to get because we do not have the correct posts in the correct places - not just saying yes to every dick and harry who wants someone to read him the classified news.
DT_Xtremez_37:

 

[Witty_Banter]

Anonymous?

Anonymous?

Witty: it took 3 weeks before you replied, no one else did (do you really think this is anonymous?) but you can bet most of the IntO's are thinking the same, it’s not whining, there was too much truth in those wise words from Melchett01.

Anonymous? What gave you the impression that I think it's anonymous? Seriously? I was merely leaning toward the possibility that there are few readers of the Spook forums, and those that do may well agree too much to bother to respond. Again, referencing that the question may indeed have answered itself, this arguement was reinforced by Cat's post (well said Cat, by the way).

I was far from calling anyone a whiner, in point of fact I agreed, albeit from the lower end of the spectrum.

My thought is this, that the trade will continue to implode until those that are strangling the life out of it are either 'retired' or removed from their positions of authority.

 

[Cat of Shadows]

Witty, you are correct about those strangling the life out of the branch and trade, but I would hasten to re-classify it as a 'wringing out' actually; we will soon have nothing left to trade.

We still seem hell bent as a Service, let alone as a branch, on bowing down and taking it right royaly in the posterior, when what is needed from our airships is a firm and final NO! to proposed cut-backs and budgetry confines..........we're trying to operate an effective fighting force here, not a high street store. The politicians love to have us, but hate to pay for us!!

I fear the RAF is broken and dying on its a$$ as an individual entity; we are merely nothing but an Army Cooperation force at present and that is a dangerous thing. If you don't believe me, then think hard about what we have just given up in the latest cuts..............didn't see any helicopters going, did you?? NO, (and quite rightly so), but, what we will give up is the thing that makes us a seperate entity - fast-jet, strike attack assets; (I'm digging out my Uncle's old Army Air Corps beret right now DT_Xtremez_32

As for Spooks not frequenting this page very much, well, put simply, it is a clear symptom of the problems with our community........significant overstretch, an acceptance to freely over-trade on an individuals goodwill with no tangible return of appreciation for their continued efforts.........basically, people don't have the time to f&rt in the Int world, let alone spend quality time with their family, or come on here to moan; sorry, provide constructive criticism DT_Xtremez_42:

(to Wobbly and the MOds, if you read this, apologies for the very long absence from this great site, but the above reasons are largely why......it's nice to be back)

 

[The Enduring Sarge]

Cat,

I know I have been out of the country for a wee while, but have I missed something?

Seems there is a lot of trouble in the trade/branch at the minute. Would say that lack of communication seems to be a big problem, although I probably better off being dumb and and somewhat contented looking out over Capri!

DT_Xtremez_14:

Sounds good, but a **** job!

 

[Cat of Shadows]

Cat,

I know I have been out of the country for a wee while, but have I missed something?

Seems there is a lot of trouble in the trade/branch at the minute. Would say that lack of communication seems to be a big problem, although I probably better off being dumb and and somewhat contented looking out over Capri!

DT_Xtremez_14:

Sounds good, but a **** job!

Enduring Sarge,

Good to see you post on here bud and I would say that $h1t job it might be, but make the most of it and stay out there as a long as you possibly can.

I agree that communication within the branch has always been dire, unless it was delivering bad tidings of the latest victim to befall the action of more than 2 Int Os gathering together................the Backstab!!, when collectively we seem to be incredibly talented in the art of timely dissemination??

But to be honest, there is a general groundswell amongst the Mid-Snr SO3 cadre at the moment which suggests an underlying disenfranchisement with the way the Branch is being 'managed'......I have also caught information that the Snr SO2 cadre are less than happy about things also.

The main reason for this is the inevitable 'Board Readout', which this year, with the exception of possibly 1 of the 5, has from all quarters appeared to hold no rationale as to 'why'?.....moreover there was a resounding 'WHAT'!!!!!! As a result, a lot of individuals who have worked hard and given a great deal personally and professionally are now, quite rightly, asking 'Why do I even bother?'. This year though, this seasonal question is holding ground amongst a good cross-section of those directly effected; there is a mood change that is not so good for the branch.

 

[Witty_Banter]

Tell the truth...

Tell the truth...

May I ask for an honest opinion from the commissioned realm of the Int Kingdom?

Do YOU think there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians? I mean no disrespect and I'm sure you are all justifiably good at your jobs, however if the crux of the problem with the Int Trade is a management issue, where is the line drawn? Is it in up in the clouds with those who's rank slides more effectively resemble a barcode, or is it at a senior enlisted / warrant level? Perhaps a smidge of both?

And, more importantly, would shifting the responsibility for effective management further downstream solve the problem - in other words, removing the necessity for as many high end officers, having lower officer posts filled by WOs, freeing up those of Junior and Senior Management to actually manage!

Please tell me if you feel this is drawing off topic.

 

[Cat of Shadows]

Personal View

Personal View

May I ask for an honest opinion from the commissioned realm of the Int Kingdom?

Do YOU think there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians? I mean no disrespect and I'm sure you are all justifiably good at your jobs, however if the crux of the problem with the Int Trade is a management issue, where is the line drawn? Is it in up in the clouds with those who's rank slides more effectively resemble a barcode, or is it at a senior enlisted / warrant level? Perhaps a smidge of both?

And, more importantly, would shifting the responsibility for effective management further downstream solve the problem - in other words, removing the necessity for as many high end officers, having lower officer posts filled by WOs, freeing up those of Junior and Senior Management to actually manage!

Please tell me if you feel this is drawing off topic.

Good post Witty DT_Xtremez_30:

I think there are 2 issues here:

The Branch - I don't personally believe this is an issue in the traditionally held view of a Branch or Trade that is in 'inbalance'. The real problem we have with the Int Branch is the Gp Cpt 'Glass Ceiling'. If you have a career with longevity, you will pretty much stack and rack in rank at around the Snr Wg Cdr level as there are currently only 4-5 Gp Cpt posts to 'aspire' to within the branch; now compared to many other brancjes, you can start to see the crux of the problem. Very rarely, and I mean very rarely, will one of those Gp Cpt's break the ceiling and promote through to Air Rank - but again, the ceiling will be Air Cmdre.

This all refers back to my comment regarding a 'branch managed through proxy by the aircrew'; to view it in any other way is foolhardy. Sadly the main reason for this is that too many of our ilk consider what we do to be in support of the 2 winged master race only, when it is not. Yes, they are our predominant customer, but we are here to provide Int Support to Air operations as a whole and that includes the FP piece in its entirety. It also means getting on board with other specialist areas of our community to ensure we have the right links and products coming back in to the Service routinely.

Bottom Line: It is not that we have too many at the top, it is because we cannot extend our promotion line above Gp Cpt that causes the problem - we lack any punch where it matters and only hold influence when the right Aircrew mate is sat at Cmd/AWC.

The Trade - OK. The trade is a difficult entity to quantify. The fall-out from the trade merger is still very much felt and I believe will continue to be felt by the community for about another 5 years (if there is a Service to speak of by then). Personally, I think the merger was long overdue and will eventually prove the decision was the right one to take. The difficulty is now, whilst we move through a situation where C's and I's cross-polinate and the old and bold on both sides see with unease the things that seperated them come tumbling down. This is inevitable and I do not decry anyone for feeling that way, but, the problem here is that certain Units that should have been leading the charge from day one have 'pushed back' against the true utility of the new airmen coming from the OPAIC.

Bottom Line: Apart from numbers being the key issue, I do not see the trade staying long-term in pain. I for one value all the trade staff I have worked with and alongside over the last decade or so, regardless of specialisation and I think, with a little more pain to suffer, the trade has quite a bright future.

I've also seen first hand on Ops the good being done by the much hated PEAIC. There are some really good guys and girls from those courses who are achieving good Ops effect in theatre when, prior to leaving on Ops and only armed with the PEAIC, to a man/woman said they felt broadsided.

Bit of a long winded post, but hope it answers the question.

 

[PiMpMyRiDe]

I've made my choice.....

....I'm OUTTA here!


So long, and thanks for all the fish!! DT_Xtremez_28:



(damn, where's the 'rats leaving the sinking ship' smiley?)

 

[Melchett01]

Well I have to say this is rather a pleasant surprise. After about 3 weeks of periodically looking on here to see if anyone had replied, I figured it was just me and that I should just shut up and get on with it or leave.

However, it is good to see that I am at least not the only one to be thinking WTF is going on these days. But looking through the posts that those of you kind enough to stick your head above the parapet on this "anonymous" forum have posted, the big question is:

This year though, this seasonal question is holding ground amongst a good cross-section of those directly effected; there is a mood change that is not so good for the branch.

Just what is this mood change, is it big enough to actually gain momentum or are the high paid help just thinking it's a bunch of JOs who missed out on promotion again bleating? Will anything come of it, and if so, what?

The last I heard from those in the know about changes to the Branch concerned the belief by those at the top that our beloved Branch needed to be put onto a campaign footing, and for those lucky few to join that illustrious footing, not to bother unpacking the deserts.

Now I admit this is hearsay, but if it is correct, then quite frankly, the higher elements really have gone totally barking and quite frankly are welcome to take over my E-Goat 'nomme de guere', because I think they really do need it more than I do. If what they are talking about is correct, and if it is supposed to make the Branch a more interesting and happier place to be, then they really have seriously misread the mood of those who will be implementing this policy, namely the JOs and SO2s. The Branch Conference this year could be fun. If of course we - collectively as JOs and SO2s who are being affected most - actually have the guts to stand up and say something must change.

And whilst part of me really is looking forward to the AOB section of Conference Question Time, I just can't help feel that I will end up being like that James Purnell MP chappie and left swinging in the wind on my own. Now I'm going to head off for last orders and drown my sorrows. Pint of hemlock please barman.

 

[Kabul Knapster]

Where's the war?

Where's the war?

Melchett01 it is not just you.

But I'm not convinced it is the Branch either - I believe that the Air Force has a major issue that is manifesting itself throughout most of the Branches, not just Int. However, as we are such a small branch then perhaps the effects are magnified in relationship to the others.

or are the high paid help just thinking it's a bunch of JOs who missed out on promotion again bleating

There is an element of that. However, if you are a JO and missed out on promotion I suggest you do an age check and, if over 34-36, best you get used to missing out, same with Sqn Ldrs over the age of 40-42. The year before last, both boards were held up as an 'aberration', however, as the same has happened this year isn't an aberration it is a trend.

Without announcement the rules appear to have changed, no longer is breadth of experience in a number of posts and demonstrated capability a requirement for advancement. Apparently it is now 4-5 years of good reports and a solid yes for 2-up - oh, and be young. If this sounds like whinging from an old git you’d be wrong. It’s whinging from someone that cares about the experience levels (or lack of) that we are inflicting on ourselves, especially when we then deposit those promotees in a Joint environment like PJHQ or MOD, or on ops. They are left to sink or swim, those that swim will do well and be recognised for it, those that sink will do themselves, their post and the Branch significant damage.

The last I heard from those in the know about changes to the Branch concerned the belief by those at the top that our beloved Branch needed to be put onto a campaign footing, and for those lucky few to join that illustrious footing, not to bother unpacking the deserts.

The Afghan war has been going on since 2001 - 9 years, more than twice the length of WWI and 3 years more than WWII. Would you have railed against the Branch for orientating itself to support either of those conflicts? Of course not. Don’t be so naïve and appreciate that we (and I do mean WE the RAF) have to support this conflict to the fullest extent possible and if that means a ‘campaign footing’ then that is what it will have to be. Like it or lump it, you’re not going to disappear into being Stn Int O at RAF Little Snoring while there is a war going on. I know you have deployed often (6 in 7 years wasn’t it?), but how is that different from what the Branch was doing throughout the 90’s when at least 4 months every 12 was a standard for nearly all the JOs and harmony guidelines didn’t exist?

As regards posts you don’t want to do. Dry your eyes princess, they all need to be done and someone needs to do them. If that isn’t for you, then what would you suggest to someone asking the same question?

There are posts out there I wouldn’t want to touch with a bargepole for all sorts of reasons, but if I was posted to them I would do them to the best of my ability and make the most of them - that’s my side of the contract. The other side is that I expect the poster to listen once in a while when I ask for something specific. At present that balance is just (and I mean only just) holding. The reason it is at risk is because some people don’t realise that the rough has to be taken with the smooth and throw tantrums.

 

[Magnum Magnum PI]

As for Spooks not frequenting this page very much, well, put simply, it is a clear symptom of the problems with our community........significant overstretch, an acceptance to freely over-trade on an individuals goodwill with no tangible return of appreciation for their continued efforts.........basically, people don't have the time to f&rt in the Int world, let alone spend quality time with their family, or come on here to moan; sorry, provide constructive criticism

DT_Xtremez_42:

More like people dont look on egoat much anymore, coz its rather dated, and the internet has moved on. When there is cock all activity for months then your gonna loose your lurkers and the page dies. Its got nuffin to do with the problems of the community... There is no community on e-goat anymore. Check Twitter/Facebook/Bebo etc... for where folks are... Maybe we need a forum on there? Then u can gauge the true descent of feeling.
DT_Xtremez_06:

 

[Cat of Shadows]

...................Check Twitter/Facebook/Bebo etc... for where folks are... Maybe we need a forum on there? Then u can gauge the true descent of feeling.

Fella, you don't need any of the above in order to gauge the true descent of feeling, it's visible and present in work on a daily basis.
DT_Xtremez_23:

I may be considered 'out of touch' by commenting on this platform again recently, but do not mistake that with being out of touch with the groundswell of discontent within the branch and the trade....................know your enemy!!

DT_Xtremez_32:

 

[stella]

hmmm sticking one's head above the parapet..................DT_Xtremez_21:

 

[Cat of Shadows]

hmmm sticking one's head above the parapet..................DT_Xtremez_21:

There's a parapet.........i've passed the point of caring!