N
Never Alert
Guest
Living in the klix ages more like.
Let the amalgamation commence!
DT_Xtremez_30: DT_Xtremez_43: Sorry had to put the jeep in, it's awesome!
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DE Sgt Controllers.
- Thread starter R_Squared
- Start date
Living in the klix ages more like.
Let the amalgamation commence!
DT_Xtremez_30: DT_Xtremez_43: Sorry had to put the jeep in, it's awesome!
C
Cerberus
Guest
Fast Track v Direct Entry
Fast Track v Direct Entry
As I had a direct hand in the creation of the ‘Fast Track’ (FT) scheme, I thought it was about time I threw my hat in the ring and explained some facts.
The reason TG9 was changed was quite simple – the old TG9 structure didn’t enable most individuals to start the JATCC at the most appropriate age and believe me age is the really critical factor in predicting success, once you get past 35 the failure rate increases exponentially making it just not cost effective. Consequently, back in the mid 1990’s, the failure rate of SNCOs on JATCC was far too high and something had to be done to bring it more in line with the JOs – we simply couldn’t just sit back and ignore the evidence. Also, it was obvious from examining the stats that the specialisation was slowly draining personnel – the numbers achieving endorsements at their 1st unit were less than the numbers leaving, either by PVR or at an option point.
It wasn’t as though there was a lack of candidates for promotion; I had already sat on 3 Cpl – Sgt TG9 promotion boards and had seen at first hand how difficult it was to get promoted and the age that most individuals managed to get the right scores was unlikely to decrease within the old trade structure, so the problem would simply continue if TG9 remained the same..
A conference was held at Hillingdon House to which a wide cross section of SNCOs and WOs from TG9 were invited to attend to consider how to address theTG9 problem. The various working groups soon realised that there were only two solutions, either FT or ‘Direct Entry’ (DE). Both suggestions had some support, but as the two options were thrashed out, it became clear that the FT option was the preferred solution. Bear in mind that at the time there was no funding available for TG9 personnel to attend the NCA Course or places available, so at the time DE would have been a real goat – FT was the only sensible solution.
The fast track scheme has been a success. Over the first period that I have stats for the average age of the ‘Fast Track’ Sgts was virtually identical to that of the JOs and the success rate was also almost identical. Just like the JOs, some ‘Fast Trackers’ were poor and lacked either aptitude, ability or sufficient determination to pass the JATCC and didn’t make it much more than half way through the course. Other ‘Fast Trackers’ were very high quality and came top of the course.
Personally I think TG9 would be much better served by continuing with the FT system, rather than switching to a DE system. With an FT entry, they get a chance to have a look at the RAF and the RAF gets a good chance to have a look at them. They have to achieve a certain standard in their assessments to be recommended for the JATCC, so a filter does exist to enable those considered unsuitable for either SNCO rank or the JATCC to be identified, whether it works as effectively as it should is another matter.
With a DE system individuals attending the JATCC will be considerably younger and probably less mature. Given the way Cranwell seems to operate these days, anyone who is gets through the initial selection process will eventually graduate, it’s just a question of how many recources they have to endure, not whether they actually meet a specific standard. Personally, having experienced some examples of the current output at first hand, I really don’t have any great expectations of the finished DE product. Sooms is right to say that the DE product will feel isolated, the young NCO Aircrew disappear into their sqns where there are many of their own peer group, but this is unlikely to be the same for a DE ATC Sgt. The young DE ATC Sgts will fall between two stools and I suspect many will not stay the distance.
Finally, IMHO there is no large group of young men and women just sitting around out there waiting for the RAF to introduce a DE ATC Sgt scheme before they decide to join. The same people we currently attract for the present FT system will be the same group we will attract for the DE scheme, only younger. I seriously doubt many more individuals than we currently attract for the Ft scheme will join because of the switch to a DE scheme, so if that doesn’t work, what do we do next? How about specialist pay or a scheme that allows a subsidised transition to a civilian licence after a set period of productive service?
I shall observe the introduction of the DE scheme with as much impartial interest as I can muster, but I think it is a step in the wrong direction. The real solution is that the ATC specialisation needs to be made much more attractive to potential recruits, both SNCOs and JOs to both encourage the appropriate individuals to join in the first place and then encourage them to remain and allow their experience to be utilized – that’s the real solution, but one that is never ever addressed - it just falls into the 'too difficult' category.
Cerberus
Fast Track v Direct Entry
As I had a direct hand in the creation of the ‘Fast Track’ (FT) scheme, I thought it was about time I threw my hat in the ring and explained some facts.
The reason TG9 was changed was quite simple – the old TG9 structure didn’t enable most individuals to start the JATCC at the most appropriate age and believe me age is the really critical factor in predicting success, once you get past 35 the failure rate increases exponentially making it just not cost effective. Consequently, back in the mid 1990’s, the failure rate of SNCOs on JATCC was far too high and something had to be done to bring it more in line with the JOs – we simply couldn’t just sit back and ignore the evidence. Also, it was obvious from examining the stats that the specialisation was slowly draining personnel – the numbers achieving endorsements at their 1st unit were less than the numbers leaving, either by PVR or at an option point.
It wasn’t as though there was a lack of candidates for promotion; I had already sat on 3 Cpl – Sgt TG9 promotion boards and had seen at first hand how difficult it was to get promoted and the age that most individuals managed to get the right scores was unlikely to decrease within the old trade structure, so the problem would simply continue if TG9 remained the same..
A conference was held at Hillingdon House to which a wide cross section of SNCOs and WOs from TG9 were invited to attend to consider how to address theTG9 problem. The various working groups soon realised that there were only two solutions, either FT or ‘Direct Entry’ (DE). Both suggestions had some support, but as the two options were thrashed out, it became clear that the FT option was the preferred solution. Bear in mind that at the time there was no funding available for TG9 personnel to attend the NCA Course or places available, so at the time DE would have been a real goat – FT was the only sensible solution.
The fast track scheme has been a success. Over the first period that I have stats for the average age of the ‘Fast Track’ Sgts was virtually identical to that of the JOs and the success rate was also almost identical. Just like the JOs, some ‘Fast Trackers’ were poor and lacked either aptitude, ability or sufficient determination to pass the JATCC and didn’t make it much more than half way through the course. Other ‘Fast Trackers’ were very high quality and came top of the course.
Personally I think TG9 would be much better served by continuing with the FT system, rather than switching to a DE system. With an FT entry, they get a chance to have a look at the RAF and the RAF gets a good chance to have a look at them. They have to achieve a certain standard in their assessments to be recommended for the JATCC, so a filter does exist to enable those considered unsuitable for either SNCO rank or the JATCC to be identified, whether it works as effectively as it should is another matter.
With a DE system individuals attending the JATCC will be considerably younger and probably less mature. Given the way Cranwell seems to operate these days, anyone who is gets through the initial selection process will eventually graduate, it’s just a question of how many recources they have to endure, not whether they actually meet a specific standard. Personally, having experienced some examples of the current output at first hand, I really don’t have any great expectations of the finished DE product. Sooms is right to say that the DE product will feel isolated, the young NCO Aircrew disappear into their sqns where there are many of their own peer group, but this is unlikely to be the same for a DE ATC Sgt. The young DE ATC Sgts will fall between two stools and I suspect many will not stay the distance.
Finally, IMHO there is no large group of young men and women just sitting around out there waiting for the RAF to introduce a DE ATC Sgt scheme before they decide to join. The same people we currently attract for the present FT system will be the same group we will attract for the DE scheme, only younger. I seriously doubt many more individuals than we currently attract for the Ft scheme will join because of the switch to a DE scheme, so if that doesn’t work, what do we do next? How about specialist pay or a scheme that allows a subsidised transition to a civilian licence after a set period of productive service?
I shall observe the introduction of the DE scheme with as much impartial interest as I can muster, but I think it is a step in the wrong direction. The real solution is that the ATC specialisation needs to be made much more attractive to potential recruits, both SNCOs and JOs to both encourage the appropriate individuals to join in the first place and then encourage them to remain and allow their experience to be utilized – that’s the real solution, but one that is never ever addressed - it just falls into the 'too difficult' category.
Cerberus
Dont forget this scheme is not only open to new entrants but also to any serving member of the RAF.
Yes we may get 19 yr olds Sgts but we may also attract other bods who are dissatisifed with their own trade and would like a new challenge (and in the case of low pay band trades more money!!)
I, for one, think DE is a step in the right direction. It will help with the ATC manning crisis and hopefully, the FOA/M/PFOMS may start to get some proper career management instead of being the poor relations of ATC.
Yes we may get 19 yr olds Sgts but we may also attract other bods who are dissatisifed with their own trade and would like a new challenge (and in the case of low pay band trades more money!!)
I, for one, think DE is a step in the right direction. It will help with the ATC manning crisis and hopefully, the FOA/M/PFOMS may start to get some proper career management instead of being the poor relations of ATC.
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
- 4,329
- 0
- 0
opsgeek, you're like a broken record. How about some of the FOMs pulling their finger out and caring. At a West London unit not far from me, all the three guys do is tread the boards to/from the canteen. You would think a WO and two sgts could, at very least, sort out a leave plot/roster. Don't blame ATC for their ineptitude.
"Sarge, can I have the day off to go to a funeral"
"No"
I suspect the air traffikers might just have said "yes".
"Sarge, can I have the day off to go to a funeral"
"No"
I suspect the air traffikers might just have said "yes".
H
Hammer
Guest
Hmmmm
I know the 3 people you mention very well and i dont think calling them inept does anybody any good. You may noy be fully in receipt of all the facts. I fully understand your point about all the whining and it is boring, there is good and bad on both sides of the trade.
I know the 3 people you mention very well and i dont think calling them inept does anybody any good. You may noy be fully in receipt of all the facts. I fully understand your point about all the whining and it is boring, there is good and bad on both sides of the trade.
N
Never Alert
Guest
I'm coming down to LATCC on 08 Nov to drop off some bits and bobs before checking into the Novotel (deep joy) for a bolthole.
Would there be anyone around free to show me round? I was down last weekend however, we arrived too late of the Fri to see anything useful.
Perhaps it would be a good opportunity for a WC to see your workload & talk about how and why we do things at our end??
Would there be anyone around free to show me round? I was down last weekend however, we arrived too late of the Fri to see anything useful.
Perhaps it would be a good opportunity for a WC to see your workload & talk about how and why we do things at our end??
T
The Full
Guest
So now there is bit more info out there and it is definitely happening what is the current feeling? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot? Are we now looking for warfighters then controllers then SNCOs?
I can see why DE had to happen - anyone got the latest manning percentages as I've got to do a brief on DE Sgts and could really do with some stats to back up my argument....
I can see why DE had to happen - anyone got the latest manning percentages as I've got to do a brief on DE Sgts and could really do with some stats to back up my argument....
SirSaltyHelmet
Thoroughly Nice Chap
- 4,329
- 0
- 0
I beleive the first are going through AAITC now.
As for warfighters, controllers etc. It has been Controller first and SNCO second since fast track was introduced.
Stats for an argument? What is your argument?
As for warfighters, controllers etc. It has been Controller first and SNCO second since fast track was introduced.
Stats for an argument? What is your argument?
T
The Full
Guest
I just want to analyse if this really was the way ahead for ATC. I know the decision has been made but I could really do with some % manning levels - recruitment stats etc.
It is just an object in analysis it isn't going to be used for anything
It is just an object in analysis it isn't going to be used for anything
T
The Full
Guest
I'm not a Shaw at the mo - see PM Chaka - It explains all. Cheers