DE Sgt Controllers.

[R_Squared]

So, we finally have our elite ground trade.
DE Sergeant Controllers, starting Autumn '08.
Am I a victim of a cruel hoax or has anyone else seen the letter doing the rounds?
I consider myself to be an open minded sceptic on this one, but after the apparent 'failure' of the fast track system I'm not to sure how to take this.
(Not my words BTW).
It certainly made some interesting reading, my favorite line was the,
'Cost neutral' bit.
Oh, and how it's going to stabilise the FOA trade, bring back a ratio of Cpl to SAC of 1:3, Increase manning throughout the trade, and be the panacea to all the ills that have befallen our trade.
Any thoughts out there?

 

[FOMz]

It will stabilise the FOA's because you won't be loosing them to JATCC after 5 minutes and we may actually get some experience back at SAC level, which we are currently sadly lacking. Second tourist SAC?? whats one of them?

 

[R_Squared]

It will stabilise the FOA's because you won't be loosing them to JATCC after 5 minutes and we may actually get some experience back at SAC level, which we are currently sadly lacking. Second tourist SAC?? whats one of them?

There is that, I just wonder if it won't affect the recruitment of FOA's.
It was one of the biggest selling points for me on joining, the potential to become a controller.
Whilst I know that there is more to TG9 than controlling, I had no real idea what else there was on entry.
I think they will be facing a hard sell, especially with a promotion slow down. We may see a drop in the quality of entrants.
Second tourists would be great, but only if they're not f@ckwits.

 

[R_Squared]

Just had a thought,
I think we should have some sort of badge so that others can see that we are 'plastic' snecs now like the aircrew.
Maybe ATC in silver letters to be affixed to our rank tabs, sweet.
DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[FOMz]

The FOA recruitment should be OK because now you're looking at a definite career path.

 

[ED-SET]

Not read the the letter yet but FFS! On console, it will work I am sure. Off console, it will be a fookin nightmare. FACTAMUNDO

 

[FOMz]

Why off console?? Did people not say the same when fast trackers were first muted??

Whats the difference between a 21 year old Plt Off controller and a 21 Year old Sgt controller - nothing.....................................

 

[R_Squared]

21 may be a little old,
Minimum age 18, 8 weeks training at Halton, 12 Weeks Airmen Aircew SNEC Training, 8 months JATCC.
19 year old Sergeant anyone?
We expect PO's to be young, not our Sgt's, that'll be all change now though.
On console, it won't make a shred of difference.

 

[busby1971]

Why off console?? Did people not say the same when fast trackers were first muted??

Whats the difference between a 21 year old Plt Off controller and a 21 Year old Sgt controller - nothing.....................................

A Plt Off has been through a more in depth selection process, will your new DE Sgts go through a similar process as the NCA.

If they are selected appropriately then there should be no problem with DE's of any trade in any rank and I'm sure there'll be banter around this as there any issues or differences in the mob.

 

[norfolkred1]

Sorry for crossing the Trade line fellas, but do you think you will get the same problem as we have when it comes to F6000 time. The lack of experience in the life of a fast tracker comes shining through, and the poor ex-Cpl will get extra F6000's on their plate....

 

[R_Squared]

Has no-one considered the Dental implications?
The grinding of teeth whilst grizzled JNCO forces 'Sarge' out to some scrote who was in playshool when he joined up?
It'll mean gum shields on issue for sure.

 

[FOMz]

I refer you to my previous comments about what was said about Fast Trackers when they were first muted.......

 

[R_Squared]

Interestingly, the letter admitted that the Fast Tracking system has failed.
I assume purely because of lack of numbers being recruited (NOT the actual FT's themselves I hasten to add).
It was always a fudge, a pointless one, that led to people being f@cked about for a few years for no good reason.
This Initiative cannot be allowed to fail, mainly because it is the last ditch chance to get the numbers up, there is no where else to go if this f@cks up.
Maybe they shouldn't have messed everyone around in the first place with Fast Trackers and gone straight to DE, we would be over all this by now.

Fomz, I do think that in the next few years it will make the situation for FOAs actually WORSE.
FT's and FOA (Q) AATC's who are eligible are going to be GUARANTEED their current rights to JATCC. Other trades can re-muster to TG9 to take advantage of this DE come Next year, so, why won't existing TG9 apply for DE too?
I think unless they are told they can't that they will.

 

[FOMz]

Nail, hit, Head mate.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I think it is a fantastic idea and long over due. If the long in the tooth guys can't accept change then fcuk off. They have the rank so that has to be accepted.

JATCC is a ******* of a course and if they pass then they desrve their third, 2 minutes in the RAF or not. It is an untapped pool of personnel, bearing in mind anyone in the RAF will be able to apply to do it - just like going NCA.

With regard to 6000s it is up to the Senior SNCOs to sort it out along with the FOMs.

 

[R_Squared]

I think it is a fantastic idea and long over due. If the long in the tooth guys can't accept change then fcuk off. They have the rank so that has to be accepted.

Accepted, Yes. Doesn't mean they have to like it though. I imagine most will just get on with their lives regardless.

With regard to 6000s it is up to the Senior SNCOs to sort it out along with the FOMs.

As far as I'm concerned, FOM's are best placed to talk authoritively about the guys in the tower. They will be, after all, the FOA's trade specialists in future, NOT the ATC Snec's.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

They can apply for DE like everyone else

 

[the lovetoad]

This idea has been put about for quite a while now and I had hoped and prayed it wouldn't happen for about 4 years (just as I pick up my pension).

The conflict between SNCO controllers and DEs will be nothing compared to the resentment held by the older, experienced JNCO's.

I personally missed JATCC because I was 3 days over the upper age limit and was therefore considered a poor candidate for the course. No-one was prepared to even look at the possibility of giving me a crack at it. I was just glad to see that 17 years of TG9 experience counted for nothing but a 3 day selection process at Cranwell will solve yet another manning crisis.

Now the fast track system has produced some very capable controllers and, yes, they do have youth on side. But it also created problems in the trade Many of these were down to poor selection in the first place. What precautions will be taken to ensure the same doesn't happen again. Will it just be a situation of "We need controllers - you'll do!!"?

I posted this once before but just to push my point home -
"Keep DE / Fast track controllers away from my 6000..thank you"

 

[sooms]

Anyone care to elaborate on why the 'Fast Track' system has failed?

What will be the educational requirements for recruitment? - same as NCO Aircrew?

By targetting the same pool as NCO Aircrew, effectively competing for the same person, how will we make DE ATC attractive?

What will we do with the ones that fail JATCC/ fail to endorse? Rejoin as LAC FOA- not many takers for that methinks.

Why does a controller need to be a SNCO?- USAF do not have FOA or equivalent- join as a controller, pass out of training as Airman 1st Class- control aircraft- work your way up the ranks. (Note- the USAF has NO Officer controllers.)

Will DE/ Transfer in be available for other trades too?- I quite fancy the idea of being a DE Sgt Painter and Finisher or maybe MT or RAFP, actually techie cos they get more money.

Seriously though, it will probably work on the console. However, the wider implications have to be considered.

I have worked with large numbers of NCO Aircrew in the AT/SH Fleets- They are, in the main, mostly good types. However, they tend to be clustered in large numbers on a small number of stations amongst their own kind. They work and socialise together. There is an element (not including me) who consider them 'plastics' etc and do not acknowledge their SNCO status. I have attended 'former cpl nights' in the bar at Odiham!

A potentially 19yr old DE Sgt arriving on a unit where there are no NCO Aircrew will be moving into the Sgts Mess where everyone will be 10-20 years older than him/her and a fair number will consider him/her a 'plastic'. He/she will not be able to socialise on camp with their peer group (no naafi bop). Socialising off base could produce some disciplinary problems- they are going to be VERY LONELY.

NCO Aircrew have their brevet and golden birdie thingys that tell everyone who they are and what they do. A DE ATC Sgt will not have these and will
have trouble 'establishing' himself- to be frank he will look like an Air Training Corps 'adult Sgt'. - One of the most important attributes of a good SNCO is credibility.

Regardless of the suitability of AAITC/ JMLC/ ILMC there are certain skills that cannot be taught, they have to be learnt by experience. How will he/she cope with being SSGF Cdr with a shift of techie SAC/Cpls with 15 years service in?
OK, the book/ tor's say do this or that- will he/she be able to manage a dozen TG1 Cpl's/ SAC's who don't want to be there and only want to watch dvd's all week?

A 19 year old is a 19 year old, regardless of rank/trade etc.. Will he/she have the depth of character/maturity to be an effective SNCO?- Please do not tell me that AAITC/ILMC can teach this!

What will be the effect on the morale of 'more senior members' of the trade. I suspect there are many experienced SAC's/Cpl's who may have trouble with the new DE Sgt, especially considering the point above. Our JNCO's and juniors expect Plt Off's to be spotty and immature (this is not intended as an insult) however they expect and deserve to have credible, mature and experienced SNCO's.

Don't get me wrong... I'm in favour of anything that will resolve the long standing SNCO Controller saga as quite frankly I'm fed up with hearing about it in every TG9 brief I've been to in last God knows how many years. Hopefully this will allow us to concentrate on more important issues in the trade such as FOM OOA's, SAC/CPL Ratio's, Integration with Flt Ops/ ASop, sick notes, lack of career management etc...

I'm sure someone has considered and thought of solutions to the above points(?)- Please let me know!!

Sooms- the eternal optimist.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

If I didnt have to go to work now I would answer that post! I will be back later!

BUGGER