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DCAE ? Cosford

M

Moz_Magister

Guest
What was wrong with RAF Cosford (as it was in my day)?

Plus, is it true they 'demobbed' Apprentice Squadron?

It seems the place is just a college with berets now instead of a working station where men were training to fight.

Any opinions?
 

MontyPlumbs

Squadron Cock
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What was wrong with RAF Cosford (as it was in my day)?

Plus, is it true they 'demobbed' Apprentice Squadron?

It seems the place is just a college with berets now instead of a working station where men were training to fight.

Any opinions?

What RAF techies are trained to fight? We are trained to fix things. If we have to fight then the doo-doo has really hit the fast spinning wotsit.

It is a college with berets, the clue is in the title Defence College of Aeronautical Engineering.

:pDT_Xtremez_28::pDT_Xtremez_28:
 

MrMasher

Somewhere else now!
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I hate the place. Its full of jumped up jobsworths who make a bad name for the place. Its a shame really, cos there are some really good people there.
But then, it is a training camp I suppose and it goes with the territory.
 

Ex-Bay

SNAFU master
Subscriber
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What was wrong with RAF Cosford (as it was in my day)?

Plus, is it true they 'demobbed' Apprentice Squadron?

It seems the place is just a college with berets now instead of a working station where men were training to fight.

Any opinions?


Apprentices ? Eh? I joined in 1960 as a Boy Entrant !

So, yes, they do not have Apprentices (or BEs) there any more. As if that's not enough, 'rationalisation' turned it into the "Defence College of Aeronautical Engineering" (although it is at RAF Cosford).

Since then further 'rationalisation' has taken place. There were two sites and MoD (=government) wanted one and it was a toss-up between Cosford and St Athan. Saints won, so Cosford is going to be (or nearly is) part of the Army (signals unit/reg't) and a couple of other bits.

It's very sad and all of us who trained there in 'the old days' mourn the passing of our 'home station' to the pongoes.


Does that answer your question ?

:pDT_Xtremez_09:
 

fat lazy techie

Flight Sergeant
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It is a college with berets, the clue is in the title Defence College of Aeronautical Engineering.

:pDT_Xtremez_28::pDT_Xtremez_28:

Monty

I think you will find the A of DCAE stands for Arab. Anyone care to comment?

However it is still the home of RAF Cosford.

The RAF Cosford banner is only unfurled for publicity purposes now, such as the airshow and when studes go and do their community projects.
 

Mug?

Flight Sergeant
1,347
2
38
how about

how about

Destroyed
Community
Army
Everywhere

What about 1RS and the PTIs and photogs, where do they fit in to the Aeronautical Engineering
 
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0
16
Monty

I think you will find the A of DCAE stands for Arab. Anyone care to comment?

However it is still the home of RAF Cosford.

The RAF Cosford banner is only unfurled for publicity purposes now, such as the airshow and when studes go and do their community projects.


WHen I was last there some bright spark had ammended the sign at the main gat to include the pearler "Training Tomorrows Enemy Today". Was spot on IMO :pDT_Xtremez_28:
 

3wheeledtechie

Sergeant
703
0
0
Ace. Was there a witch hunt to find the culprit?

Almost as good as all the Marham signs that were amended to read BAE Marham. Staish not impressed, cue sad-on.:pDT_Xtremez_31:
 

Tin basher

Knackered Old ****
Staff member
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1)What was wrong with RAF Cosford (as it was in my day)?
2)Plus, is it true they 'demobbed' Apprentice Squadron?
3)It seems the place is just a college with berets now instead of a working station where men were training to fight.
Any opinions?

1) What's wrong with Cosford? Nothing and everything depends on your view point. It's a training unit some staff dislike the non operational squadron lifestyle and can't wait to get away others love the 9 to 5 aspect of the work and the amount of family time regular hours bring. Students whinge about bull nights, discips, parades, PT same as they always did. Students like early stacks on Friday, They get pi$$ed in the NAAFI and local pubs then complain about the kebab van, they try and sh@g anything that will let them same as always.

2) The old style apprentice you refer to has long gone that ended in the early 90's the new type of modern apprentice follows a training program far, far removed from the one that used to be undertaken and could be worthy of a whole thread on it's own to discuss the relative merits or otherwise of the new system.

3) The college mostly that's just a name change from School of Technical Training to college. Seems the yoof of today don't like going back to school but are happy to go to a college. It is a working station where people are trained to do their respective trade jobs and operate in war zones. Almost all of the SAC's coming back on fitters courses have seen operational service in hot and sandy places with in the last 2 or 3 years. They are not trained to fight in a fix bayonets up and at 'em style but are trained to do their jobs in places that are not very nice.

Just my personal take on the questions asked.
 
M

Moz_Magister

Guest
Well,

that seems to answer most of my questions,

I think I'll still lament the passing of the Apprentices, there was a good tradition going on there,

I don't know what it's like now but you knew if a lad was apprentice trained he'd fix whatever you gave him and be outside with a fag in his mouth before you'd finished tying your windsor, and it would be a neat job.


I realise the lads now are getting sand in their boots and I just hope the discipline that made the apprentices what they were hasn't loosened off (as seems to be the case in general, judging by the state of some of the local army lads I've seen recently)


All this nostalgia has brought on another question though,

How do people rate this 'new' SA80 compared to the old SLR?
 

propersplitbrainme

Warrant Officer
4,196
0
0
It seems the place is just a college with berets now instead of a working station where men were training to fight.

What goes on at Cosford viz training has not changed since the name change occured; when exactly did technical training units actually train personnel to fight in a way that is different to what is being done now?

Mr Masher" said:
I hate the place. Its full of jumped up jobsworths who make a bad name for the place. Its a shame really, cos there are some really good people there.
But then, it is a training camp I suppose and it goes with the territory.

Come off it mate, FULL of jumped up jobsworths :rolleyes: I could point a finger at one or two in our area perhaps. Instructional staff are, and always have been an easy target for a cheap shot ill-informed whinge. They are doing a job that few others appear to want to do themselves, they don't want civvies to do it because they are perceived to be out of touch and they don't want other blue-suits to do it because they think they are getting away with an easy life.
So Cosford is full of is people doing a job that nobody in the big scary outside world seems to want to do, doesn't think anyone else should do, but which someone has to do lest every new recruit gets foisted onto the front line with no training whatsoever.

As for the DCAE bit the name change came about, I believe, as a precursor to the Defence Training Review which was always going to result in a joint tri-service training establishment for disciplines which are alike across the board. So a Defence College was probably a natural name choice.
 

3wheeledtechie

Sergeant
703
0
0
I agree with much of what psbm says. When I first went through it was full of career instructors who had been there for donkeys, and were completely out of touch with the real air force. Things hadn't improved much by the time of the fitters course, but we could spot the ones who were the genuine article as opposed to sqn rejects. They do need to rotate people through as those blue suit instructors who have spent years desert dodging , don't have much credibility with students who've just come back from one of the sandpits.

As for SLR vs SA80, we're running out of people who've shot SLR. However despite the SA80s failings (weight, design, quality etc), which have not been entirely resolved by the L85A2 programme, it has advantages over the SLR, namely more compact and thus suited for vehicle / heli bourne ops, accuracy, easy to teach people to shoot with, size/weight of ammo, SUSAT. The SLR was a cold war weapon, and used 7.62, whereas the change to 5.56 represents the intention to maim not kill necessarily.
 

Ex-Bay

SNAFU master
Subscriber
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As for SLR vs SA80, we're running out of people who've shot SLR. However despite the SA80s failings (weight, design, quality etc), which have not been entirely resolved by the L85A2 programme, it has advantages over the SLR, namely more compact and thus suited for vehicle / heli bourne ops, accuracy, easy to teach people to shoot with, size/weight of ammo, SUSAT. The SLR was a cold war weapon, and used 7.62, whereas the change to 5.56 represents the intention to maim not kill necessarily.

Oh come, come. I always fondly imagined that the idea, in a war, was to kill the enemy. As if that's not enough, modern technology has some pretty nasty 5.56mm bullets available. If you want simple, try a .303 (re-bored and new length as required). The 7.62 was a very nice weapon. And yes, I've shot all three in my time; not sure I could handle a .303 now though. . . . . .


:pDT_Xtremez_35:
 

MrMasher

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Come off it mate, FULL of jumped up jobsworths :rolleyes: I could point a finger at one or two in our area perhaps. Instructional staff are, and always have been an easy target for a cheap shot ill-informed whinge. They are doing a job that few others appear to want to do themselves, they don't want civvies to do it because they are perceived to be out of touch and they don't want other blue-suits to do it because they think they are getting away with an easy life.
So Cosford is full of is people doing a job that nobody in the big scary outside world seems to want to do, doesn't think anyone else should do, but which someone has to do lest every new recruit gets foisted onto the front line with no training whatsoever.
I did try to say that there are some good people up there!
I guess I used the wrong phrase when I said jobsworths. Dont get me wrong, there are quite a few up there!
Cosford seems to me to be a very political place. Lots of sqns run by too many officers. It seems that lots of bun fighting goes on and eventually this is felt at the customer level.
I remember doing a course up there and we offered to take shorter lunch breaks (3/4 of an hour instead of an hour an a half!) and taking shorter t-breaks so that we might get away earlier on Fridays in an attempt to miss the M6 car park. The instructor was well up for it but was told NO by the management. It seems if one sqn has early stacks the others might hear about it and the stocks and shares values of the said sqn might drop.

In my time at Cosford I've had a few run ins with people. When I look back at it I can see how pathetic they were. Do people really get set into "that" sort of way where they assume everyone is 12 and that they must be spoken to as such?
I've always been polite but firm and held my ground, eventually this shows up how pathetic these type of people are!
 

3wheeledtechie

Sergeant
703
0
0
I always fondly imagined that the idea, in a war, was to kill the enemy

I think your thinking is behind the times. No the aim is to maim and incapacitate the enemy to take them out of the game. If you can injure a man and tie up the logistics tail and some of his fighting colleagues transporting him backwards from the front line, that's better than killing him stone dead.

Back on topic: it seems to me every time I went to Cosford that the Cpl and Sgt instructors were generally treated fairly poorly, especially compared to the Burnham lecturers with all their rights and union power.
 

propersplitbrainme

Warrant Officer
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I remember doing a course up there and we offered to take shorter lunch breaks (3/4 of an hour instead of an hour an a half!) and taking shorter t-breaks so that we might get away earlier on Fridays in an attempt to miss the M6 car park. The instructor was well up for it but was told NO by the management. It seems if one sqn has early stacks the others might hear about it and the stocks and shares values of the said sqn might drop.

Fair point mate, and one which I agree with 100%. I've been involved in just this argument from both sides of the managerial fence for a good number of years now, and its one which goes around and around.

From an instructors point of view, one of the biggest bones of contention is the lack of remit they are given to conduct their course in whichever way they see fit and, most importantly, to be able to knock the training day on the head when they detect that a saturation point has been reached. This applies particularly to the phase 3 courses where everyone naturally wants to make their way home at the weekends and Fridays can become a major headache because, as an instructor, you know that there will be an inevitable push from your course to get an early stack, a push which becomes the main focus of their attention and naturally so.

From the other side, the management argument usually runs along the lines of...
You are given, say, 120 periods (there are 8 periods in a day, 40 in a week so 120 would be a 3 week course) in which to deliver this course. If you are letting your students go on Friday afternoons then that equates to 12 periods, or 1 1/2 days, of training time not used. 1 1/2 days that could be knocked off the length of the course to send personnel back to their units where they are badly needed. The sight of students knocking off early, or an unsually quiet station and empty carpark on a Friday afternnon, therefore sends the senior management into a bit of a tizzy and, trust me mate, its the FIRST accusation they throw at you when you or your students comment that the course is a bit 'rushed' and tight for time.
The shortened breaks and lunchtime thing doesn't wash either although, as a student, I know there's nothing more infuriating than sitting on your hands during what seem to be unecessarily protracted breaks in the training day. The argument used is usually one of protecting the instructors who need the breaks from the classroom even though they are, more often than not, totally unconcerned themselves.

The gold-plated solution would be to write Friday afternoons out of the training timetable altogether for phase 3 students at least - it aint going to happen :pDT_Xtremez_31:

The next best solution would be for the same trust and faith to be placed in the instructional staff to manage their course as is placed in them to deliver their course.
 

Sospan

Flight Sergeant
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The next best solution would be for the same trust and faith to be placed in the instructional staff to manage their course as is placed in them to deliver their course.

Can you see that coming about ?

The best course I done at Cosford was when the Flt Commander was an Ex ranker who knew how the RAF worked, he treated us like adults. All the other times I have experienced graduate training officers recently passed out from Cranwell.
 

fat lazy techie

Flight Sergeant
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The next best solution would be for the same trust and faith to be placed in the instructional staff to manage their course as is placed in them to deliver their course.

That is never going to happen in my place with the blessing of certain people who shall remain nameless "sir". It seems to me that us blue suited instructors are treated as SACs as best, possibly as CPLs for the invertibrates (SGTs). Fortunately our line management have some common sense about them and have allowed us a little bit of flex with our lunch and tea break timings. All we need to do is get the start time back and all will be rosey in the garden, but it ain't going to happen while a rather nasty dark cloud is looming over us.

Why oh why didn't we get what we were supposed to, instead of what turned up instead.:S
 
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