Civil Serpents and TOIL

[chumpzilla]

Hello all. Bit of an odd question but any advice is welcome.

Say (hypothetically) a civilian colleague “works” through lunch, are they entitled to TOIL? Also and more importantly, is TOIL a thing for civil servants? Can feel a heated debate on the horizon and was just wondering if I can be put right before playing a potential trump card....

I know that flexible working is tickety boo, but TOIL has always been a bit of a hazy thing for me.

All advice is welcome and appreciated

 

[Oldstacker]

It depends on what the working arrangements are for that individual and the team generally. Flexible working is absolutely encouraged in DE&S; that includes, wherever possible, working whatever hours, and wherever, suits the individual providing it meets the business needs.

I tend to start work around 0930, take a lunch of between 1 & 2 hours anytime between 1200 & 1400 and then work until around 1900. The precise times are to suit me at the time. That's flexi hours, at some places (Abbey Wood, for example) there is a clock in/clock out regime with the same flexibility. At other places, mine included, it's done with a manually kept timesheet, honesty and line management monitoring.

The key element is taking a minimum 30 min break after a maximum of 6 hours.

TOIL in the CS is a slightly different thing, it's used instead of paying overtime, so if someone works their normal hours and then does extra they are then entitled to TOIL if overtime hasn't been agreed for payment.

Given that most CS should be on flexi working anyway, TOIL is less likely to be recorded as such.

Examples of where flexi working would be constrained would be places that have a justified need for consistent manning (shift working, hazardous area working, manning a service desk with set hours etc) or where the individual is subject to special management (probation period, previous misuse of flexi etc).

It's all in the Policy, Rules and Guidance (PRG) so if you think someone is extracting the urine then check the rules first and be sure of your facts.

 

[chumpzilla]

It depends on what the working arrangements are for that individual and the team generally. Flexible working is absolutely encouraged in DE&S; that includes, wherever possible, working whatever hours, and wherever, suits the individual providing it meets the business needs.

I tend to start work around 0930, take a lunch of between 1 & 2 hours anytime between 1200 & 1400 and then work until around 1900. The precise times are to suit me at the time. That's flexi hours, at some places (Abbey Wood, for example) there is a clock in/clock out regime with the same flexibility. At other places, mine included, it's done with a manually kept timesheet, honesty and line management monitoring.

The key element is taking a minimum 30 min break after a maximum of 6 hours.

TOIL in the CS is a slightly different thing, it's used instead of paying overtime, so if someone works their normal hours and then does extra they are then entitled to TOIL if overtime hasn't been agreed for payment.

Given that most CS should be on flexi working anyway, TOIL is less likely to be recorded as such.

Examples of where flexi working would be constrained would be places that have a justified need for consistent manning (shift working, hazardous area working, manning a service desk with set hours etc) or where the individual is subject to special management (probation period, previous misuse of flexi etc).

It's all in the Policy, Rules and Guidance (PRG) so if you think someone is extracting the urine then check the rules first and be sure of your facts.

The person in question starts at 0730-1600 and “works” over their lunch break. They pretty much accrue their own TOIL book and we have no sight of it. They are bitching about everyone leaving at Friday lunch, etc... even though we manage our own hours and workload so taking advantage of our opportunities.

Could you be a saint and point me in the rough direction of this PRG?

 

[Ex-Splitter and Proud]

If they're working 0730-1600, and for example taking 60 minutes for lunch they'd be 'working' for 7 hours 30 each day. Most people work a 7 hour 24 day (37 hours per week), so if they did that 5 days a week, they'd accumulate 30 minutes of [FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]Flexi-time each week. If they're not taking a full hour for lunch, then that would build up their Flexi a bit quicker.

If they're not working an agreed overtime regime, and are on 37 conditioned hours per week (42 including lunch) then I wouldn't expect them to be building up TOIL, just Flexi.

A lot depends on the individual's circumstances and, more importantly, what has been agreed with their Line Manager (Delivery Manager in DE&S). I can only assume you're not their LM (DM), otherwise you'd have been involved in agreeing any working arrangements.

Before getting into any "heated debate", it'd be worth keeping your powder dry until you have a better understanding of the individual's circumstances, you may have to face the fact that it might just be none of your business. Many people now have other flexible ways of working that they've formalised with their management chain. Also, some people get (honestly) mixed up between what is Flexi or TOIL, they shouldn't but you know how thick people can be.

If you feel strongly enough about it, it might be worth having a quiet word with other team members (even the LM) to get a better understanding of the arrangements that people have made, if only to understand why some people are around at various times and some aren't.... Perhaps couch it in terms of helping you to understand the team better, or so you can help people by taking messages for them if they're not at their desks... You could even really get your tongue deep in your cheek and look at it from an 'equality'/'diversity' personal development angle - if you get my drift.... ;-)

If you believe the person is fiddling.... be careful in the first instance, taking that path without a full, clear and factually accurate knowledge/understanding of the situation can take you into a minefield that gets pretty uncomfortable, pretty quickly - this isn't an 80s squadron crewroom....

Watch your six (and preferably get someone watching it for you) before going all formal


[/FONT]

 

[chumpzilla]

If they're working 0730-1600, and for example taking 60 minutes for lunch they'd be 'working' for 7 hours 30 each day. Most people work a 7 hour 24 day (37 hours per week), so if they did that 5 days a week, they'd accumulate 30 minutes of [FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]Flexi-time each week. If they're not taking a full hour for lunch, then that would build up their Flexi a bit quicker.

If they're not working an agreed overtime regime, and are on 37 conditioned hours per week (42 including lunch) then I wouldn't expect them to be building up TOIL, just Flexi.

A lot depends on the individual's circumstances and, more importantly, what has been agreed with their Line Manager (Delivery Manager in DE&S). I can only assume you're not their LM (DM), otherwise you'd have been involved in agreeing any working arrangements.

Before getting into any "heated debate", it'd be worth keeping your powder dry until you have a better understanding of the individual's circumstances, you may have to face the fact that it might just be none of your business. Many people now have other flexible ways of working that they've formalised with their management chain. Also, some people get (honestly) mixed up between what is Flexi or TOIL, they shouldn't but you know how thick people can be.

If you feel strongly enough about it, it might be worth having a quiet word with other team members (even the LM) to get a better understanding of the arrangements that people have made, if only to understand why some people are around at various times and some aren't.... Perhaps couch it in terms of helping you to understand the team better, or so you can help people by taking messages for them if they're not at their desks... You could even really get your tongue deep in your cheek and look at it from an 'equality'/'diversity' personal development angle - if you get my drift.... ;-)

If you believe the person is fiddling.... be careful in the first instance, taking that path without a full, clear and factually accurate knowledge/understanding of the situation can take you into a minefield that gets pretty uncomfortable, pretty quickly - this isn't an 80s squadron crewroom....

Watch your six (and preferably get someone watching it for you) before going all formal


[/FONT]

Thanks mate, very useful thoughts there

 

[Ex-Splitter and Proud]

Thanks mate, very useful thoughts there

You're welcome ----- been there, seen that.... and saw the scars of the poor bugger who stirred the pot a little too much. ;-)

 

[busby1971]

Just thought I’d mention that no matter what the organisations rules say, they really should take that 30 minute break if working over 6 hours as it’s a legal thing.

Flexible working is great but it probably gets abused by more people than you think.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Stevienics]

I have had trouble with CS before in this. They have to take a 30 minute break after 6 hours as stated. This means that they shouldn't be claiming anything in flexi if they haven't had it. This WILL be reflected in their time sheet and must be signed off by their LM, monthly.

 

[Tin basher]

I would be very cautious with this one any hint of management "investigating" looking to closely or to harshly at the individual will lead you to very complicated situation very quickly oh so easy to get your fingers burnt. There must be actual verifiable facts to back up your view. I have seen similar situations in mixed working environment of RAF and CS the RAF guys can't be paid overtime or, as they are paid 24/7, theoretically even work overtime. The solution with the agreement of both management chains was TOIL for all involved in the work both CS and RAF. Accruing Flexi is more opaque, I have known CS who diligently work through lunch on an almost daily basis building up their Flexi and others who eat sarnies and play solitaire as they "work" through lunch. Tread very softly, there is very large tin of worms out there and if the lid comes off ...................

 

[Stevienics]

I Tread very softly, there is very large tin of worms out there and if the lid comes off ...................

This is so. DBS will always say they will act if there is a problem but never forget that 1. there is no CS HR any more... its about who has the bigger friend and 2. the CS at the functional end are quite literally minimum wage slaves, and will be protected accordingly

 

[muttywhitedog]

I'm a CS and I work flex. I'm expected to do 37 hrs per week over 5 days. I have to take 30 minutes for lunch, which is not part of my 7:24 per day.

I generally arrive at work between 7:30 and 8am, take the bare minimum for lunch and leave between 4:30 and 5pm. That generally gives me a 1hr credit per day, which I accrue and take as and when I want. We operate a 4week cycle, at the end of which you must be somewhere between -7:24 and +22:12. More than 1 day in debit and you are put on fixed hours for a month. More than 3 days in credit and you lose it, although there is a facility to "bank" a day per cycle to use between Oct & Dec.

I am pretty certain that nobody else takes as many flex days as me.

I was offered a job in March with the MOD, on fixed hours. At the interview, when I asked about flexible working, and what happened if I had to work late, through lunch, or arrived late, their reply was that flexible working/TOIL wasn't available. I turned down the job and have recently seen it re-advertised for the 3rd time!

 

[Downsizer]

I'm a CS and I work flex. I'm expected to do 37 hrs per week over 5 days. I have to take 30 minutes for lunch, which is not part of my 7:24 per day.

I generally arrive at work between 7:30 and 8am, take the bare minimum for lunch and leave between 4:30 and 5pm. That generally gives me a 1hr credit per day, which I accrue and take as and when I want. We operate a 4week cycle, at the end of which you must be somewhere between -7:24 and +22:12. More than 1 day in debit and you are put on fixed hours for a month. More than 3 days in credit and you lose it, although there is a facility to "bank" a day per cycle to use between Oct & Dec.

I am pretty certain that nobody else takes as many flex days as me.

Sounds a pretty sweet deal. How do you account for time? Clock in/out, timesheet....?

 

[muttywhitedog]

Our ID cards also act as access control. We clock in and out. If we forget, we can add/deduct via our LM. Its a very accurate way of recording it. The down side is any early stack comes off your flex!

I believe those in the MOD CS use an excel spreadsheet to record their hours worked and then get their LM to sign it off at the end of the month, which isn't so accurate. I used to see CS get the entire Christmas Grant off using their flex, but never saw them work beyond 4:30pm. Go figure...

 

[Stevienics]

I believe those in the MOD CS use an excel spreadsheet to record their hours worked and then get their LM to sign it off at the end of the month, which isn't so accurate. I used to see CS get the entire Christmas Grant off using their flex, but never saw them work beyond 4:30pm. Go figure...

There is no official manual form, but there is a generally accepted Excel variant which most people here use. Also, the term flexi time and flexible working are not interchangeable. We don't fix core hours here (anywhere) so it's flexible working, or in other words, at the absolute discretion of the individual LM when you must be at the coal face.

 

[gray]

Our ID cards also act as access control. We clock in and out. If we forget, we can add/deduct via our LM. Its a very accurate way of recording it. The down side is any early stack comes off your flex!

I believe those in the MOD CS use an excel spreadsheet to record their hours worked and then get their LM to sign it off at the end of the month, which isn't so accurate. I used to see CS get the entire Christmas Grant off using their flex, but never saw them work beyond 4:30pm. Go figure...

Yes - we use a flexi spreadsheet.

Our core hours are 0700 - 1900 unless there are exceptions - i.e.Travelling etc.

We have leeway, as opposed to what you were told at interview... everyone here does flexi, as you can see on Friday afternoons - or not.

I generally start around 0715, and finish about 1530/1630 ish to go to the gym, or go home and enjoy the rest of the afternoon/evening.

Although we swipe in/out, it doesn't get used for timekeeping (or anything !). Plus we have different locations on site without swiping, so it'd be hard to track properly. CS Core Values, and all that jazz...

Everything else is the same at MWD says though in regard to hours.

 

[metimmee]

I'm a CS and I work flex. I'm expected to do 37 hrs per week over 5 days. I have to take 30 minutes for lunch, which is not part of my 7:24 per day.

I generally arrive at work between 7:30 and 8am, take the bare minimum for lunch and leave between 4:30 and 5pm. That generally gives me a 1hr credit per day, which I accrue and take as and when I want. We operate a 4week cycle, at the end of which you must be somewhere between -7:24 and +22:12. More than 1 day in debit and you are put on fixed hours for a month. More than 3 days in credit and you lose it, although there is a facility to "bank" a day per cycle to use between Oct & Dec.

I am pretty certain that nobody else takes as many flex days as me.

I was offered a job in March with the MOD, on fixed hours. At the interview, when I asked about flexible working, and what happened if I had to work late, through lunch, or arrived late, their reply was that flexible working/TOIL wasn't available. I turned down the job and have recently seen it re-advertised for the 3rd time!

I'm similar to you except I can rack up flexi over multiple months except it is capped at 12hrs in Jan. On a big project I was on, I went up to something like 40 odd hours. if I get the bus into work, I am locked into a 'long' day and accrue 1hr flexitime which is good. If we really are puling extra hours, flexi can be a bit of a burden and can impact other projects when you burn it, so sometimes the PM will allow us to turn flexi into overtime, but that is at PMs discretion.

It's recorded on manually inputted time sheet with no automated clocking in like there is at Abbey Wood. it's done on trust, but if they were suspicious it'd be easy to gauge activity with the entry/exit points and account activity.

I knew a CS at Abbey Wood who gamed the system by clocking in/out at the nearest building to the car park and continuing to our building 10 minutes away. She also did similar things with fizz.
Someone noticed and after going sick, and going through the disciplinary process was sacked.

 

[SAXAVORDIAN]

My old company worked on allotted yearly hours so in certain times we be on shorter hours on non peak periods. Then longer hours during the busy period. my contract was 45hrs a week which could rise to 55hrs or more. To get TOIL we worked extra hours being on permanent night shift or doing extra weekends.To work through the dinnertime tends to be a No No with certain companies due to H+S and Trade Unions as the individual needs senior staff to monitor your work rate value assigned for 30 to 60 minutes. A few companies I have worked for your were lucky to get a full dinner only allowing two 15mins

 

[bigtrev952]

Another retiree here

in my branch of the civil service i work shifts and the times rotate early, lates and nights.

should I work beyond I get toil at normal time which is banked till I want it.

it used to be paid at time and a half overtime, now it’s not paid and not time and half.

volunteers are hard to find to fill absences, sickness etc when it’s not paid for, but it is flexible working apparently.

You can see the queues /effects of flexible working at airports, ports etc and 40 percent less staff on a good day

 

[justintime129]

Another retiree here

in my branch of the civil service i work shifts and the times rotate early, lates and nights.

should I work beyond I get toil at normal time which is banked till I want it.

it used to be paid at time and a half overtime, now it’s not paid and not time and half.

volunteers are hard to find to fill absences, sickness etc when it’s not paid for, but it is flexible working apparently.

You can see the queues /effects of flexible working at airports, ports etc and 40 percent less staff on a good day

What happens if you want to finish on time or is it in your contact to work over. If you do then it should be overtime.

I'm a citizen not a subject

 

[bigtrev952]

What happens if you want to finish on time or is it in your contact to work over. If you do then it should be overtime.

I'm a citizen not a subject

like to think so wouldn’t you, no though, no overtime just toil and you have to ask permission as to when you can take it,
thats been the final straw for many who would rather take early retirement. Plenty of vacancies though !

flexible working has meant the summary tearing up of terms and conditions for many, can only see it getting worse.