Calling all firefighters

[skevans]

Surely there must be more firefighters on here. So far there is me and 222firedawg. Come on lads, stand up and be counted.

 

[snowball1]

Probably all playing volleyball

 

[vim_fuego]

Not one myself but I always thought firestorm was one...His avatur is a picture of fire and everything....

 

[skevans]

Not one myself but I always thought firestorm was one...His avatur is a picture of fire and everything....

He is, in all honesty i forgot about him, although he is no longer serving, he is still a fftr, so thats three of us! So if it came to it, there are about 300 techies to each fftr... Sounds fair odds!

 

[Bluntend]

Genuine question

Genuine question

Ok, since we're on the subject of fire fighters, if there are any reading this thread perhaps they could answer a question for me. A few days ago I was returning from a visit to Nottingham and was stuck in traffic. The road was single carriageway in each direction and nose to tale. I was therefore surprised to look to my right to see a guy in an apparently private car on the wrong side of the road trying to cut in infront of me. In his passenger window was a sign that read "Firefighter on call". A few hundred yards ahead was a fire station that he finally pulled into after pursuading drivers to let him weave in and out of the traffic.

My question to any firefighters reading this is: Is this actually something that takes place regularly? Do all firefighters get to drive against the flow of traffic without any warning to on-coming traffic (no siren, no lights) if they are being recalled to their station for duty? Is there special dispensation that allows firefighters in their private cars to break the law or at least break the rules of the road? Ok, three questions but who's counting?

If this is perfactly legitimate activity, does it transfer to any other members of the emergency services?

 

[skevans]

My question to any firefighters reading this is: Is this actually something that takes place regularly? Do all firefighters get to drive against the flow of traffic without any warning to on-coming traffic (no siren, no lights) if they are being recalled to their station for duty? Is there special dispensation that allows firefighters in their private cars to break the law or at least break the rules of the road? Ok, three questions but who's counting?

If this is perfactly legitimate activity, does it transfer to any other members of the emergency services?

In a 14 year fire service career I have never driven in this manner in any private vehicle, and I would happily voice my opinion to any other fftr that did so.

There are NO legal exemptions from the law, for any private vehicles, full stop.

It would seem to me that this individual was probably a retained fftr, and therefore his fee may have been affected. So he has taken it upon himself to break the law. The pity is no matter what his own belief in his driving ability, he could have caused or been involved in a collision. Therefore preventing him from turning out to the first emergency, possibly causing a second, and preventing the ingress of other crew members and egress of the fire vehicle.

I would report this to the fire authority involved. IT IS A DISGRACE.​

 

[Bluntend]

In a 14 year fire service career I have never driven in this manner in any private vehicle, and I would happily voice my opinion to any other fftr that did so.

There are NO legal exemptions from the law, for any private vehicles, full stop.

It would seem to me that this individual was probably a retained fftr, and therefore his fee may have been affected. So he has taken it upon himself to break the law. The pity is no matter what his own belief in his driving ability, he could have caused or been involved in a collision. Therefore preventing him from turning out to the first emergency, possibly causing a second, and preventing the ingress of other crew members and egress of the fire vehicle.

I would report this to the fire authority involved. IT IS A DISGRACE.​

Cheers Skevans. I'm writing a letter this morning.

Bluntend.

 

[skevans]

Good for you, let us all know what the reply says.

 

[The Green Scopie]

There are no fftrs here as they are all suck in tumble dryers!

DT_Xtremez_30:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/5255298.stm

 

[firestorm]

Ok, since we're on the subject of fire fighters, if there are any reading this thread perhaps they could answer a question for me. A few days ago I was returning from a visit to Nottingham and was stuck in traffic. The road was single carriageway in each direction and nose to tale. I was therefore surprised to look to my right to see a guy in an apparently private car on the wrong side of the road trying to cut in infront of me. In his passenger window was a sign that read "Firefighter on call". A few hundred yards ahead was a fire station that he finally pulled into after pursuading drivers to let him weave in and out of the traffic.

My question to any firefighters reading this is: Is this actually something that takes place regularly? Do all firefighters get to drive against the flow of traffic without any warning to on-coming traffic (no siren, no lights) if they are being recalled to their station for duty? Is there special dispensation that allows firefighters in their private cars to break the law or at least break the rules of the road? Ok, three questions but who's counting?

If this is perfactly legitimate activity, does it transfer to any other members of the emergency services?

All I can think is that the firefighter concerned was a retained (part time) firefighter who was answering a pager, though its just a a guess though.
These people are volunteers whith normal jobs, (butcher baker etc), who work part time as ffs. They spend some time "on call" and when an incident occurrs on their patch they get paged and have to get to their station to turn out.
I've never worked with reatiners before, but this is all I can assume you are talking about.

I'm in a major met brigade, ex RAF Fire.

 

[firestorm]

In a 14 year fire service career I have never driven in this manner in any private vehicle, and I would happily voice my opinion to any other fftr that did so.

Though in your 14 years as a RAF firefighter you'd never have had to.
See above about retained firefighters.

 

[Bluntend]

Though in your 14 years as a RAF firefighter you'd never have had to.
See above about retained firefighters.

So, are you saying that non-RAF fire fighters use their private vehicles in this way regularly?

 

[skevans]

Though in your 14 years as a RAF firefighter you'd never have had to.
See above about retained firefighters.

Oh, very sharp tonight aren't you!

Just to clarify...

I have been a serving military firefighter for a little over 14 years now. However during that time I have been a retained firefighter in Cornwall for 4 Years, and a retained firefighter in Lincolnshire for 3 years.

I have also spent 3 years as a first responder for Avon ambulance authority, as well as being a crewman on an inshore lifeboat for 3 years.

My current posting prevents me from carrying out any of the above, or similar activities, but as soon as I can I will.

However the fact remains that throughout my service with the RAF, a local authority brigade, the ambulance service or the RNLI. I have never driven in such an irresponsible manner.

If the person in question was a retained firefighter, which I suspected all along, then they should be made to account for there actions. After all one of the conditions of joining the retained is that you must live or work within a specified distance or travveling time. usually 3-5 minutes, or 3 miles. Therefore with such a short distance to cover there is no excuse for risking lives.

 

[Tigger]

There are NO legal exemptions from the law, for any private vehicles, full stop.

Actually ur wrong there.

 

[skevans]

Actually ur wrong there.

Really, care to elaborate?

 

[Tigger]

Certainly, we have several people who through the course of their work need to use their own vehicles when on call. These guys have detachable blues and I know of one guy who has a siren fitted to his BMW. There are also a couple of fire investigation guys who have turned up in their own vehicles, which also have blues mounted in a similar fashion.

For those who don't know, the emergency services actually only have a few exemptions.
Red traffic signals, to be treated as giveway.
Keep left.
Keep right.
Speed limits, but generally must keep to within government guidlines, which is double the posted limit, although there are times when this is ignored.

There is case law for members of the public being found not guilty for speed offences when enroute to hospital with someone who is injured. In the case I read, the driver/vehicle was found to have been acting as an ambulance, and therefore justified in his actions.

Does that clear it up ?

 

[Titus Aduxas]

Skvans. Titus Aduxas, still serving. pops his head from inside bay 1. Only 299 techies to Fire Fighters now.

DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[skevans]

Skvans. Titus Aduxas, still serving. pops his head from inside bay 1. Only 299 techies to Fire Fighters now.

DT_Xtremez_30:

Welcome, the odds are slightly in our favour now!

 

[skevans]

Certainly, we have several people who through the course of their work need to use their own vehicles when on call. These guys have detachable blues and I know of one guy who has a siren fitted to his BMW. There are also a couple of fire investigation guys who have turned up in their own vehicles, which also have blues mounted in a similar fashion.

For those who don't know, the emergency services actually only have a few exemptions.
Red traffic signals, to be treated as giveway.
Keep left.
Keep right.
Speed limits, but generally must keep to within government guidlines, which is double the posted limit, although there are times when this is ignored.

There is case law for members of the public being found not guilty for speed offences when enroute to hospital with someone who is injured. In the case I read, the driver/vehicle was found to have been acting as an ambulance, and therefore justified in his actions.

Does that clear it up ?

The guy first mentioned by Bluntend had a sign in his window saying 'firefighter on call'. As far as I am aware this is no exemption from any kind of Law, nor is it a passage through busy streets. When private vehicles are fitted with blues and sirens and are being used for legitimate emergency uses then they actually cease to be classed as private vehicles and become a part of the services fleet. Any accident that ensues will be covered by the authorities insurance, not the individual.

The case law that you stated is an interesting one, however without all the facts none of us can really pass any judgement on that. It would seem similar to the urban myth about the man who get stops for speeding with his wife in the car about to give birth, in this case the cops take pity and drive them/escort them to the hospital. You could also put it down to a quirk of the Law, muc like the one that says you can shoot a welshman from the City walls of Chester with a longbow without being prosecuted!

The exemptions you mention aren't full exemptions, they are get out clauses. Every emergency driver is entitled to use the methods you mentioned and a few more besides, however if you have an accident in an emergency vehicle you are able to be prosecuted under civil law. Although in most cases the claimant will sue the authority under vicarious liability.

http://www.leighday.co.uk/doc.asp?doc=363&cat=845

There are however some true exemptions, for example the wearing of seat belts 'Fire Service personnel when answering emergency calls and donning operational clothing.' or 'Police drivers when testing a vehicle' or 'Police when escorting a prisoner'. However the law always states that it is only valid when the obeyance of such laws would hinder the purpose for which the vehicle is being used, or words to that effect anyway.

In fact as far as I can recall there are only two exemptions from road traffic law for the fire service that dont have get out clauses, these are leaving a vehicle unattended with the engine running (because its running the pump also), and driving/parking on common land/cycle lanes/bridleways.


Just to reiterate, there are no legal exemptions when driving a private vehicle.

 

[Tigger]

Since you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe the law...........

Condition 2: the emergency vehicle
For the purposes of this exemption, an emergency vehicle

is a vehicle which is used to respond to emergencies, and
either: has fixed to it a lamp designed to emit a flashing light for use in emergencies (“fixed” indicates that the light must be a permanent fitting to vehicle. It need not be permanently fixed to the exterior of the vehicle, but a vehicle with only a light which can be removed from the vehicle is not an ‘emergency vehicle’ for the purposes of this exemption)
or: would have such a lamp fixed to it but for the fact that a special threat to the personal physical security of those using it would arise by reason of it being apparent that they were employed in an emergency service (This text has been withheld because of exemptions in the Freedom of Information Act 2000)).
Note that the type of emergency vehicle is not defined, so it could (in its non-emergency vehicle form) be a car or a van.

Note the bottom bit.

The exemptions you mention aren't full exemptions, they are get out clauses.

Section 87 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1987


a. Speed Limits Section 87 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 19784 exempts certain emergency vehicles fromspeed limits if observance would hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose it was being used for on that occasion.

b. Red Traffic Lights (Sec 36 RTA 1988)The red signal shall convey the prohibition that traffic shall not proceed beyond the stop line. However, this is subject to: Exceptions to stopping at red or red/amber signal:-When a vehicle is being used for police purposes and the observance of the prohibitionconveyed by the red signal would be likely to hinder the use of that vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used, and the red signal shall convey the prohibition that that vehicle shall notproceed beyond the stop line in a manner or at a time likely to endanger any person or to cause the driver of any vehicle proceeding in accordance with the indications of light signalsoperating in association with the signals displaying the red signal to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident

c. Keep Left / Right signs (Sec 36 RTA 1988)The regulation also states that on an occasion where a vehicle is being used for police purposes and the observance of the requirement specified above would be likely to hinder the use of that vehicle then the requirement conveyed by the sign in question shall be that the vehicle shall not proceed beyond that sign in such a manner or at such a time as to be likely to endanger any person.

Just to reiterate, the law pertains to drivers excemptions not the vehicles they are driving, whether it is private or otherwise. It is for the driver to justify his actions.

As I said I know of several people who use their PRIVATE vehicles for police and fire purposes when on call. Specifically, police negotiators and at least 2 senior fire officers.