Humble Scribe
Sergeant
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No, you are wrong on this occasion Penfold; once you've been correctly arrived in theatre your parent unit won't be able to see your full record until you arrive back.
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No, you are wrong on this occasion Penfold; once you've been correctly arrived in theatre your parent unit won't be able to see your full record until you arrive back.
Incorrect - So long as you have an AO bringing you back to your Unit you still retain sight of the individual, including all Pay and Personnel records.
He may be wrong on that one, but he's right on the money with the others. I know there are some problems with users and JPA but for 'HR' its the nuts and bolts of your trade and you should be as conversant with it and the associated rules as the Techie is with the JAP and the Medic is with their publication. Furthermore, if your not then open a book and look it up - that is how you are ment to earn your big bucks, SO START EARNING IT!
This is absolute genius.....adminers saying that it's not an admin issue, but down to individuals.
Horsecrap. I didn't see a payslip or JPA until I arrived back in the UK. It was my first herrick tour and I assumed that LOA was part of the Ops Allowances package. Why would I check??? Just to make sure that 3 years down the line some **** doesn't accuse me of taking it illegally. Rubbish.
It was an admin cluster and NOT the fault of the individuals, but the admin staff. Just have the balls to admit when you're wrong.....not individually, but as a trade FFS.
Horsecrap. I didn't see a payslip or JPA until I arrived back in the UK. It was my first herrick tour and I assumed that LOA was part of the Ops Allowances package. Why would I check??? Just to make sure that 3 years down the line some **** doesn't accuse me of taking it illegally. Rubbish.
It was an admin cluster and NOT the fault of the individuals, but the admin staff. Just have the balls to admit when you're wrong.....not individually, but as a trade FFS.
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Looks like yet again the Adminers dont know their own trade and their responsibilities, another nail in the coffin me thinks. I have also highlighted probably the funniest part of the response.
Those 7 words are in fact the whole problem. If the administration (its nothing to do with medical, technical etc) was correct then we wouldnt be in this predicament and if the admin support was switched on at individuals units then it would have taken 18 months and a a bunch of professional civvies to spot the error.
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Now Now
Now Now
It's an individuals responsibility to notify PSF of any concerns, getting several hundred/thousand pounds extra in your bank account shoud not really have gone unnoticed.
It's the inputters job to make sure that entries are right on JPA. This role has been conducted by non Admin and non RAF people in the past, blame where it's due. No good adminer will defend an admin fubar but will try to put it right if aware of the problem.
As I've said before, we took a big establishment cut when JPA came in and very little training and an increase in workload, therefore we were stretched big time for quiet a while, things are getting better.
Now Now
It's an individuals responsibility to notify PSF of any concerns, getting several hundred/thousand pounds extra in your bank account shoud not really have gone unnoticed.
It's the inputters job to make sure that entries are right on JPA. This role has been conducted by non Admin and non RAF people in the past, blame where it's due. No good adminer will defend an admin fubar but will try to put it right if aware of the problem.
As I've said before, we took a big establishment cut when JPA came in and very little training and an increase in workload, therefore we were stretched big time for quiet a while, things are getting better.
Can't say if it's ALL army, but AAC guys at Odi were in the breifing about it when I went last week.
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All well and good if we were briefed by our admin staff as to what we were entitled to exactly, had access to JPA and got our payslips.
So now its my wifes fault for not noticing that my pay was incorrect whilst I was away and I now have the added responsibilty of checking that the admin staff have done their job correctly, how would I know I am a nurse, I wouldnt expect someone to visit the Dr's then get home and trawl through their med records to check that the diagnosis, medications prescibed and tests requested were correct everytime they visited the Med Centre. Lets face it if the Dr makes a mistake he can be struck off he/she will not blame the patient for not checking that he had done his job properly.
Stop trying to blame everyone but yourselves this is an administrative blunder of astronomical proportions from the logging into theatre to support back at home, but because I was performing my OOA task properly and then do what the RAF needed me to do on return it is my fault.
What you should be doing is supporting those that have been let down, looking at getting written off or at least compromising with those concerned and suggesting a percentage to be repaid. It would be totally different if i had deliberately applied for the LOA knowing that I was not entitled and then not telling anyone. This was done without my knowledge and not my fault, what about those individuals who have left the service or or were badly wounded, or lost their life no doubt you will be chasing them as well.
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Point 1 - You should have had a set of "JIs" before you set and possibly a set of arrival instructions that should have told you what you were going to get, the JIs have been on the A1 Support Site for Years and don't take a lot of tracking down.
Point 2 - You've always had the responsibility to check your pay even pre JPA. The money could easily sit in your account until you get back as long as notice it on your return and let PSF know then there's no damage done. I don't want to get in to trade bashing but I would hardly raise this point as a shining example of good practice, and the first thing the RAF will throw in your face is that you could have always sought a second opinion (even if you didn't have any suspicion at the time).
Point 3 - Never have done and I don't think anybody else has either, well done by the way.
Point 4 - The example you cite is fraud and the action taken would be much worse than just recovery, most PSF chf clks are probably trying their best to make this easy for those affected, writing off money people received doesn't really happen, too often, these days.
Move on bud
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Me doing your job again?
I am under no illusion that I will more than likely have to pay back what I owe and yes I agree it was an over issue, I am protesting and refusing to pay up on principle. The principle that at no stage has anyone had the common decency to say Penfold there has been a massive administration cock up and you were put on LOA by mistake, and although you are supposed to check your pay we can understand how this may have been missed. These are your options with regards to paying it back. Yet again we are very sorry that this mistake will affect you but we will do everything in our power to sort this out.
The letter I received starts by referencing 2 JSP's and a DIN says how much I owe and then says we are taking it off you but you can appeal, a really caring approach.
This is how I would have approached it.
1. Get a list of all those affected.
2. Draft a suitable letter in the format I suggested (include the relevant militray blurb but actually show a bit of compassion and understanding.)
3. Invite all those affected to a couple of briefs or see everyone in a personal interview (Cpls for SAC's, Sgts for Cpls etc) and explain exactly what went wrong, why they owe money and how you as an administration branch can help.
4 Rather than insisting on the draconian 4 days pay or having to expose all your financial records to get an alternate repayment plan, give other options to suit in discussion with both parties. (Whilst I am in the fortunate position of possibly being able to afford 4 days pay/month I would much rather pay it back at £100 a month)
5. Keep everyone affected informed as to what is going on.
But it would never happen beacause.
1. It would possibly mean opening PSF on an afternoon and you would lose you 'Training time'
2. God forbid someone admitting it was an administrative mistake
3 Clerks would actually have to know what they are talking about, and help individuals.
4. You would have to do your job, which if it hade all been done and monitered correctly in the first place we would'nt be here.
The final irony is that I know lots of peolpe including myself are going to appeal and there will have to be a lot of investigation, and administrative work done processing all this paperwork, 1000's of man hours will be spent and months wasted so in the long run it will probably cost more in man hours than the actual amount of debt that needs to be recovered.
Lets face it with the current track record there is no chance that they will get it right anyway and it will develop into an even bigger cluster and take even longer and cost much more.
As I have said previously I have (or did have
DT_Xtremez_42
some very good friends who are excellent clerks and I have nmot intended to offend individuals, but I feel sorry for you especially the old and bold that have to work in such trade where there is so much deadwood and incompetence from the highest levels down to the lowest ranks. Where it used to be the one bad apple it is now a few good apples in a barrel of sh1t
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A reasonable starting point ...I'll fetch me beret
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Me doing your job again?No jus asking you to keep to your responsibilities
I am under no illusion that I will more than likely have to pay back what I owe and yes I agree it was an over issue, I am protesting and refusing to pay up on principle. The principle that at no stage has anyone had the common decency to say Penfold there has been a massive administration cock up and you were put on LOA by mistake, and although you are supposed to check your pay we can understand how this may have been missed. These are your options with regards to paying it back. Yet again we are very sorry that this mistake will affect you but we will do everything in our power to sort this out.How much did you get over paid, is it really possible miss this extra amount? You've already admitted that perhaps you should have noticed this so have taken partial blame for not highlighting it...
The letter I received starts by referencing 2 JSP's and a DIN says how much I owe and then says we are taking it off you but you can appeal, a really caring approach.Letter like these need to be impartial and non judgemental offering hope could be miscontrude and give false hope, it says you can appeal so put forward your points you never know you might get let off a few quid.
This is how I would have approached it.
1. Get a list of all those affected.Yep the NAO did this
2. Draft a suitable letter in the format I suggested (include the relevant militray blurb but actually show a bit of compassion and understanding.)because you know best
3. Invite all those affected to a couple of briefs or see everyone in a personal interview (Cpls for SAC's, Sgts for Cpls etc) and explain exactly what went wrong, why they owe money and how you as an administration branch can help.This matter is personal, all personnel have the right to see their Admin staff to discuss this matter on a 1 2 1 basis, why would knowing what went wrong help your cause, you owe money because you were over paid, the original letter says you can appeal.
4 Rather than insisting on the draconian 4 days pay or having to expose all your financial records to get an alternate repayment plan, give other options to suit in discussion with both parties. (Whilst I am in the fortunate position of possibly being able to afford 4 days pay/month I would much rather pay it back at £100 a month)Wouldn't we all
5. Keep everyone affected informed as to what is going on.You've got a letter that says you owe the MOD a few quid, this is what is going on
But it would never happen beacause.
1. It would possibly mean opening PSF on an afternoon and you would lose you 'Training time'.Don't think so
2. God forbid someone admitting it was an administrative mistake I think we all know it's an admin error that the payment was made, but it was a personal error to spend money that wasn't yours.
3 Clerks would actually have to know what they are talking about, and help individuals. pure trade bashing
4. You would have to do your job, which if it hade all been done and monitered correctly in the first place we would'nt be here. The system shoudl have prevented this, however with any new system them are transision problems and this is one of those.
The final irony is that I know lots of peolpe including myself are going to appeal and there will have to be a lot of investigation, and administrative work done processing all this paperwork, 1000's of man hours will be spent and months wasted so in the long run it will probably cost more in man hours than the actual amount of debt that needs to be recovered.I know if only we'd kept the number of adminers that it actually takes to run this complicated system then errors like this may never have happened
Lets face it with the current track record there is no chance that they will get it right anyway and it will develop into an even bigger cluster and take even longer and cost much more.nice
As I have said previously I have (or did have
I understand your pain, good luck with the appeal (you'll probably need a better arguement than above).
Perhaps they could be issued with your preps? I was unaware I was supposed to hunt for JIs when going away in between the numerous trade and generic courses I have to go on in between getting my leave in so I don't lose any for that year. Whenever I've asked in PSF if they had any more info on my det I've always been told no. Admittedly I gave up 2 or 3 OOAs ago but this has been in 3 different PSFs, I've either been very unlucky or there is a serious breakdown between what the experienced seniors in the HR trade know and what the SACs on the desk know, and that is probably where all this stems from in the first place.
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B1971 you are obviously trying to give a reasoned answer and for that i thank you, but you all sound like a badly recorded looped tape.
In you first line of your reply you say I must keep to my responsibilities.
I have to ask you therefore what are your responsibilities as an Adminer if not to ensure that the administration of the oiks like myself is correct which includes our pay. Administration as a military branch has failed thousands of servicemen and women with a King of Cock ups but rather than the few who have caused the problem it is obviously the thousands of us none admin that are at fault. You will be glad to know that this is going to be my last reply to this thread and no amount of quoting DIN's and JSP's will get round the fact is that Militray Adminitration has ballsed up and would rather blame us, manning issues and JPA than fessing up and apologising.
I got no JI's (5days notice) I was posted whilst OOA and cleared two days after returning, I had limited JPA access and never got my payslips for the whole time I was away. I did not know what I was entitled to and my wife only knew that extra money was going into the account which she assumed was LSA. But obviously its still my fault.
Next time you go to the Docs and you get examinedand he says its all Ok then two days later your leg drops off just remember its your fault for not checking.DT_Xtremez_42:
In you first line of your reply you say I must keep to my responsibilities.
I have to ask you therefore what are your responsibilities as an Adminer if not to ensure that the administration of the oiks like myself is correct which includes our pay. Administration as a military branch has failed thousands of servicemen and women with a King of Cock ups but rather than the few who have caused the problem it is obviously the thousands of us none admin that are at fault. You will be glad to know that this is going to be my last reply to this thread and no amount of quoting DIN's and JSP's will get round the fact is that Militray Adminitration has ballsed up and would rather blame us, manning issues and JPA than fessing up and apologising.
I got no JI's (5days notice) I was posted whilst OOA and cleared two days after returning, I had limited JPA access and never got my payslips for the whole time I was away. I did not know what I was entitled to and my wife only knew that extra money was going into the account which she assumed was LSA. But obviously its still my fault.
Next time you go to the Docs and you get examinedand he says its all Ok then two days later your leg drops off just remember its your fault for not checking.
DT_Xtremez_42:Next time you go to the Docs and you get examinedand he says its all Ok then two days later your leg drops off just remember its your fault for not checking.
LOL - Genius analogy!!!!
DT_Xtremez_14:True Blue Jack
Warrant Officer
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Stepping aside for the moment from the argument over who is responsible for this almighty c*ck up...
There is no longer any grounds to appeal against recovery of an overissue on a 'good faith' basis. This is not a PSF or JPA issue, but the result of a change in the law a few years back. In short, if you have received public money to which you are not entitled, whatever the reason for the overpayment, then in almost every case it WILL be recovered. The only grounds on which an appeal for write-off may be considered is 'change of position' or 'estoppel'. Basically, it's legal speak for "I was so sure I was entitled to the money that I bought a new car". It is very difficult to prove as you might imagine.
So I'm sorry folks but one way or another the money will be recovered. (Plumber might be the exception but they will have to be seen to try to recover the money even from him). Now, I can't promise that the person or people responsible will be subject to any kind of administrative or disciplinary action although they should at least be re-trained in my opinion and processes are no doubt already in place to prevent a re-occurrence.
It is however possible - even likely - that the in-theatre arrivals clerk was not a shiney of any colour. Certainly, I prepped an AMM to go to Afghan to be the arrivals clerk a couple of years ago (while simultaneously prepping a shiney to go out there and do a force protection job but that's another gripe entirely). So please leave out the trade bashing for once because it is not helpful and in this instance is probably not warranted.
There is no longer any grounds to appeal against recovery of an overissue on a 'good faith' basis. This is not a PSF or JPA issue, but the result of a change in the law a few years back. In short, if you have received public money to which you are not entitled, whatever the reason for the overpayment, then in almost every case it WILL be recovered. The only grounds on which an appeal for write-off may be considered is 'change of position' or 'estoppel'. Basically, it's legal speak for "I was so sure I was entitled to the money that I bought a new car". It is very difficult to prove as you might imagine.
So I'm sorry folks but one way or another the money will be recovered. (Plumber might be the exception but they will have to be seen to try to recover the money even from him). Now, I can't promise that the person or people responsible will be subject to any kind of administrative or disciplinary action although they should at least be re-trained in my opinion and processes are no doubt already in place to prevent a re-occurrence.
It is however possible - even likely - that the in-theatre arrivals clerk was not a shiney of any colour. Certainly, I prepped an AMM to go to Afghan to be the arrivals clerk a couple of years ago (while simultaneously prepping a shiney to go out there and do a force protection job but that's another gripe entirely). So please leave out the trade bashing for once because it is not helpful and in this instance is probably not warranted.
Surely, human nature often indicates that some folk are prone to jealousy in being 'less rich' when others seem to effortlessly cream in the ££'s - but to offer some perspective, why didn't Parliament have an LAC clerk to administer MP's claims - trusting as they did in jack-squat whilst our millions were squandered?
PS. I was only ever a scribe when JPA limped into my life
PS. I was only ever a scribe when JPA limped into my life
ninjarabbi
Warrant Officer
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Penfold, I personally think that I could put up with all the rubbish that JPA spews out (having been erroneously 'swiped' into Bastion whilst still in the UK) if only once, just once someone would apologise. It's only a small thing but it never seems to happen.
