How big is the a400m

[justintime129]

In relation to the Hercules and other transport aircraft. Seen pics but nothing to compare against

 

[MingMong]

This might help...

 

[Douglas Bader's Right Leg]

Half way between a Herc and a C17 - filling a capability gap that doesn't exist.

 

[wobbly]

But what you completely forget is the C130J replaced the C130K in 1999 and after 11 years of service they have used a peacetime equivalent of around 25 years of flying. This means that by 2018 the C130J fleet will be out of hours and scrapped.

If we get the A400M by 2014 the transition of taking onboard the fleet and ironing out any problems will be less of a problem than taking delivery of a new aircraft and immediately decommisioning 50% of your current fleet. This is what happened at Lyneham back in the early naughties. The aircraft was nowhere ready for immediate service and in 2001 it was thrust into the Middle East in a half arsed state.

It may not be replacing a like for like aircraft but it will be replacing the C130 K & J with improved cargo space and payload with the capability of strip landing and better low level performance over the C17.

Oh, and its European but no doubt will cost a fortune to produce which is a downer.

 

[Douglas Bader's Right Leg]

It can carry much more than a C130, but its low level and rough strip capability is worse - if it replaces C130 in toto, we will lose an entire capability.

 

[Hu Jardon]

But what you completely forget is the C130J replaced the C130K in 1999 and after 11 years of service they have used a peacetime equivalent of around 25 years of flying. This means that by 2018 the C130J fleet will be out of hours and scrapped.

If we get the A400M by 2014 the transition of taking onboard the fleet and ironing out any problems will be less of a problem than taking delivery of a new aircraft and immediately decommisioning 50% of your current fleet. This is what happened at Lyneham back in the early naughties. The aircraft was nowhere ready for immediate service and in 2001 it was thrust into the Middle East in a half arsed state.

It may not be replacing a like for like aircraft but it will be replacing the C130 K & J with improved cargo space and payload with the capability of strip landing and better low level performance over the C17.

Oh, and its European but no doubt will cost a fortune to produce which is a downer.

Jeez look at you - are you after a staff job at LIAR Command?DT_Xtremez_35:DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[MingMong]

Oh, and its European but no doubt will cost a fortune to produce which is a downer.

Fortunately we have already paid for them (plus the extra bail-out money for the project). So it is money already spent.

 

[Talk Wrench]

It can carry much more than a C130, but its low level and rough strip capability is worse .

Where did you get that information from? How do you know that these capabilities are worse?


TW

 

[Ex-Splitter and Proud]

Fortunately we have already paid for them (plus the extra bail-out money for the project). So it is money already spent.

If you mean the 22 ordered airframes, we haven't actually paid for them - yet.

Furthermore, the development costs (and the bail out) are still linked to failed milestones, e.g. relating to first flight of the first prototype, etc - which slipped so far that penalty clauses could allow the partner nations to scrap the programme and recoup some (if not all) of the costs. Obviously that would probably mean the end of Airbus Mil - and have a significant knock-on effect to Airbus
DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[Talk Wrench]

Obviously that would probably mean the end of Airbus Mil - and have a significant knock-on effect to Airbus
DT_Xtremez_42:

Airbus Mil was designed purely to pull the project away from the core Airbus business to minimise the damage caused by a potential program cancellation. They did the same with A380.

TW

 

[Ex-Splitter and Proud]

Airbus Mil was designed purely to pull the project away from the core Airbus business to minimise the damage caused by a potential program cancellation. They did the same with A380.

TW

So, if one went belly-up, the other wouldn't suffer?
DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[Craig855s]

We never should have spent money on this project, it would have been cheaper and given us the same capability to just buy a handful more C17s (say to take us up to 10 or 11) and C130Js

 

[Ex-Splitter and Proud]

We never should have spent money on this project, it would have been cheaper and given us the same capability to just buy a handful more C17s (say to take us up to 10 or 11) and C130Js

Wow - 20-20 hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Whining after the event is neither productive, nor helpful.

We could have adopted that sort of mentality years ago... and bought nothing but American platforms from the 60s onwards. That would have shot the British and European aerospace industry in BOTH feet, rather than just the one as we did. Then we'd have next to NO manufacturing industry in this country (or Europe) - even less than we currently have.

Might as well start sewing Stars on the Union Jack and changing our money to dollars

DT_Xtremez_42:

A400 is a collaborative programme involving eight European nations (Germany, France, Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Luxembourg and United Kingdom), procuring a total of 180 aircraft, so of course it's complicated - and of course it's had problems, and of course it's providing JOBs!

European nations issued a Request for Proposal in September 1997 - Airbus Military was formed in response. It wasn't until June 2001 that the Memorandum of Understanding was signed.

At that time, one of the arguments for A400M over the C-130J was that it would be able to carry a 25 ton payload over a distance of 4,000 km. So, a fleet of forty A400Ms would be able to lift a UK Brigade to the Gulf within 11.5 days, as opposed to the 28.5 days required to make a similar deployment with forty C-130s. However, numbers were diluted before the MOU was signed, presumably witht the intent of sharing loads across European fleets.

Then there were other programme problems, not least the debacle over (civil)certification of the engines/engine control system.

Add to that the political issues involved in the Airbus organisation, particularly some Spanish petulance, and issues with Customer nations changing requirements, etc, it's hardly surprising that the programme has faltered.

So, what to do?
Write off the money that's already spent?
Trash the European Aerospace Defence industry?
Fill the coffers of Uncle Sam (Boeing/Lockheed)?

Even if we changed horses now, would Lockheed/Boeing be able to fit our requirements into their production schedules, or would we have to wait even longer?

Cheers easy!
DT_Xtremez_34:

 

[Talk Wrench]

We never should have spent money on this project, it would have been cheaper and given us the same capability to just buy a handful more C17s (say to take us up to 10 or 11) and C130Js

At a time when the MoD is looking to slash its budget by getting rid of LOTS of blue suits, there might be a lot of people thankful that the A400M project is in motion.

The project has created and safeguarded thousands of UK jobs and is likely to create even more when serial production begins.

So you may find that a lot of those who leave the RAF as part of its latest drawdown find the transition to civvy streeta little easier knowing that aviation jobs are out there because of this project.

Assuming they want to stay in aviation of course.

TW

 

[Douglas Bader's Right Leg]

Where did you get that information from? How do you know that these capabilities are worse?


TW

There was a comparison sheet knocking around a year or so ago based on Airbus' performance figures - I can't find it online. Basically it showed that A400M's performance is about half-way between C17 and C130 in almost everything except payload which is closer to the C17 end of the range.

It isn't what we need from a transport ac, but then 10 years ago we were using Hercs for strategic transport - so we'll make it work somehow.

 

[wobbly]

To be honest I'm all for the a400M except for the fact that we could probably buy C17's cheaper.

 

[Tedlooney]

So is the A400m a bit like the Belfast?