No need to do the RAFT anymore.

[Downsizer]

Thank you for your well written and intellectual reply sir.
I know for a fact, that there were alot of people being sent back to the UK, for many reasons which could be directly attributed to a lack of fitness as a main factor. I used to spend alot of time in the Medical Centre, because I was responsible for the air conditioning and main power supply into it.
So thank you for calling me a liar and telling me I’m talking through my hoop. Being a moderator, I would expect a little more from you in way of a manners.

I would be interested to hear from any medical staff on here, who would like to possibly share their experiences of working OOA and how many SP's were sent back circa 2004 Iraq.

Once again, thank you for your reply.

How many is a lot? You know for fact, so enlighten us...

Additionally does the fact that I am a moderator preclude me from having an opinion? No, it doesn't and my opinion is you are talking out yer hoop because was you say is the complete opposite of my firsthand experience.

I have been insulted twice in the replies received. Your debated skills are very interesting indeed.

You are insulted because I said you were talking out yer hoop? Wow...

 

[grumpyoldb]

Someone's got out of the wrong side of the kennel this morning!!DT_Xtremez_14:DT_Xtremez_14: DT_Xtremez_14: DT_Xtremez_14:

woof woof

He's just having a biatch! DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[Leckie1]

How many is a lot? You know for fact, so enlighten us...

Additionally does the fact that I am a moderator preclude me from having an opinion? No, it doesn't and my opinion is you are talking out yer hoop because was you say is the complete opposite of my firsthand experience.




You are insulted because I said you were talking out yer hoop? Wow...

Downsizer, your attitude is not worthy of me engaging in a debate with you. When I posted, you could have easily asked me about the contents and questioned me. You chose a rather childish path, of telling me I am talking out of my hoop. I’m sorry, but I don’t enter into debates with people who respond like that.
I have stated that I was offended by your comments, and that I expected better than that from a moderator. Your comments are a quick way, of starting a personal argument on here. I am not here for a personal argument, only to debate on certain subjects. The RAFFT being one of them.
It is not up to you, to decide what I find offensive.

It is a shame that you couldn’t reply to my post in an adult manner without resorting to gutter comments.

However, I am sure there are many other Goat users who I will be able to communicate with, without lowering my standards.

Thank you again, for your comments.

 

[Downsizer]

Are you a politician?

It's a simple question:

As you know for fact, how many were sent home because they weren't fit?

 

[vim_fuego]

I haven't upset you to the best of my knowledge so in as polite a way as possible how many people do you reckon have been sent home for lack of fitness related problems?

I'm at Waddo and like to keep my ear to the ground and I've heard of none...My fleet has just come off ops and they were working their cha-cha's off in 35-40C and no-one went home for those reasons...

I'm down the med centre on Weds so I'll ask them for a rough figure...I do know that there are 100's on the physios books here for sport related injuries...This has gone through the roof since the fitness test got all serious and the draw on manhours must be eye-watering...

 

[Little Tronk]

Unusually I agree with VF, a cedrtain JHF base has similar stats, but again as far as I'm aware non sent home for fitness related problems, so please give us these facts!

 

[John Lloyd]

In non argumentative fashion

I remember getting off a Herc in Dhahran in August/September 1990 into 40'+ temperatures, this was in the day of a booted group run and an individual timed run as an annual BFT, hardly sport billy standards.

Straight from the wilds of North Yorkshire into a Saudi furnace and weapon loads with no time for acclimatisation.

Funny, I don't seem to remember any of us 'unfit' (By todays standards), falling over and being medically evacuated.

 

[Realist78]

Come on the Leckie 1, it's a very simple question, how many?

 

[Discombobulated]

Hi. Have been reading this thread with much interest and a little disbelief at some of the comments made.
Firstly, it would seem that, if the RAF were to please EVERYONE, they would need about 50 different forms of the RAFFT. Some like running, some like cycling, some like shuttles, some like straight runs etc etc....

Surely, servicepersons are forgetting that,

a) We are in the ARMED FORCES, since when do we as serviceperson's get to pick and choose what we want ??

b) We absolutely need our fitness levels at a high standard, so that we can do our jobs properly in hot places (as well as everywhere else).

c) The RAFFT is not a difficult test, if you are having problems passing it (and presuming you have no medical chit), then you are not maintain your fitness levels, and are therefore a liability to yourself and your fellow serviceperson's, especially when on Operational Deployments.

d) Fitness tests are NOTHING NEW !! They have been around for as long as ANYONE has been in the RAF. We have had long enough to know what they involve and what we have to do to pass it. Yes they are a little harder these days, but that’s because our operational commitments have changed.

This subject is a bug bearer of mine, but I’m not going to start slagging everyone who can’t pass it. I have my opinion on the real shirkers, and I feel strongly about the extra burden they place on the guys and girls who keep themselves fit and ready to do their job in Op's.

The reality is that, some people are just plain lazy. And no matter how many 50 minute slots they get in a working week to get down the gym, THEY WILL NOT GO and get themselves fit. It has taken a massive overhaul of the RAFFT, to motivate these people into getting fit (ie. if you don’t get fit, you’re out !!), (can't get much more motivation than that).

I am a little peeved at hearing the age long excuse that, if I’m fit to do my job, I should be left alone. That's cobblers!!
The RAF is more and more being employed as a soldier first, tradesman second, especially on Op's. (Perimeter fence guard duties, tower guard duties, top cover on convoys, etc etc). Anyone who thinks that by being unfit they can carry out these duties in 120 degree heat and still maintain their concentration and operational effectiveness is very mistaken. Not to mention what I previously said, they can become a liability.

When I was in Iraq in 2004 (before anyone starts, I have been away twice since then), the amount of unfit people I saw, who were sent back to the UK, simply because they couldn’t handle the heat, was a scandal. Think about every single serviceperson who was bought forward at short notice, to take over those slots. How is that fair on their family and friends, that they get messed about because someone can’t be bothered to get fit enough for operations??

Finally, the RAFFT is here and it’s here to stay. I for one am glad that, there is now a way of getting these lazy people out of the RAF. I think that the current legislation is both supportive towards the serviceperson whilst being stringent enough to have the "teeth" to kick the dead wood out.

May I suggest a nice comfy office job for those who cannot pass the RAFFT. A job where your inability to maintain a BASIC level of fitness, is not going to put any of your colleagues in mortal danger.

I have to say that i agree with most of what is written here.
The RAFFT is a basic test, and although i don't enjoy it or find it as easy as some people, i do my best to ensure i pass it.
Its 20 mins of sweating, but better than months of job searching.
Although i have never seen anyone sent home due to their lack of fitness, i know of plenty who should have been. Its unfair for anyone in the height of an Afghan summer to be expected to undertake someone elses workload on top of their own, and with the increasing possibility of jobs outside the wire, a basic level of fitness will help a retreat from enemy fire or ambush with all the added weight of kit thats being worn.
And for the record, i was one of the many RAFFT failures for many years. There was no incentive for me to pass, and regardless of my fitness i was allowed to do my job overseas and at home with no issues. Luckily for me i got motivated before the birth of my child as i wanted to be healthy enough to play in the garden or park with her, and not be the 'Fat Dad' at the school when collecting her. Now i'm 4 stone lighter and owe the motivation to my daughter, however the thought of losing my 'secure' job for the sake of a couple of small life changes to diet and exercise is enough to keep me on track.
Although i was always able to do my job when i was 18 stone, i can do it easier and quicker now i'm 14 stone, and the climate overseas is a lot easier to bare, so fitness IMO is something that is needed to be sustained.

 

[Leckie1]

I haven't upset you to the best of my knowledge so in as polite a way as possible how many people do you reckon have been sent home for lack of fitness related problems?

I'm at Waddo and like to keep my ear to the ground and I've heard of none...My fleet has just come off ops and they were working their cha-cha's off in 35-40C and no-one went home for those reasons...

I'm down the med centre on Weds so I'll ask them for a rough figure...I do know that there are 100's on the physios books here for sport related injuries...This has gone through the roof since the fitness test got all serious and the draw on manhours must be eye-watering...

Hi Vim Fuego,

My original post was not about exact numbers of how many had been sent back, more a general opinion of the current RAFFT standards and mechanisms in place to get rid of the dead wood.

Please look at my original post to see what I was giving my opinion on. Lack of fitness on
Operations will result in many different problems. Examples of these are Heat Exhaustion, Dehydration, etc, which can and were attributed to a general lack of fitness.

Whilst I was in Basra in 2004, there were a large number of people being sent back to the UK, with what was being put down to a lack of Physical Fitness resulting in other health problems. This was before the VO2 max tests were introduced. These large amounts of SP’s being returned to the UK, prompted the introduction of the VO2 max and the increases in the RAFFT standards.

Please feel free to ask your stations PTI/PedO, why the new higher standards were introduced.

I am pleased to hear that the new RAFFT is doing its job and keeping our Serviceperson’s fit for Op’s. This can be seen by the lack of SP’s, being returned back to the UK at present, as you have pointed out. Clearly this is the biggest endorsement to all those who argue it is a waste of time.

I don’t think it’s a big secret or rocket science to know that, working away for 4 months (poss 6 months), in searing heat and at high tempo, requires a very fit individual. Anyone who argues against this is going against medical opinion (not just RAF opinion). Now if someone can’t even pass the RAFFT, I would say that, they will at some stage of their OOA (particularly in the Middle East) encounter problems, which could result in them being a liability.
I have been on other OOA’s since, and the number of SP’s being sent back, has to my knowledge decreased considerably. Surely, it can be no coincidence that, an increase in the RAFFT and more stringent and regular tests have contributed to this reduced RTU from OOA’s.

In my opinion, I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Fitter RAF, better standard of deployed Staff.

 

[Downsizer]

Whilst I was in Basra in 2004, there were a large number of people being sent back to the UK

How many? Simple question...

 

[Leckie1]

How many? Simple question...

Downsizer, I have never stated I had exact figures in any of my posts. My knowledge of how many were sent back were based on the numbers I saw in the Med Centre and talking to the Medical Staff there, who were a little miffed that so many SP's were so unfit, they couldnt deal with the extreme heat (a direct link to poor fitness).

As someone else has said on here, 2004 was in the days pre VO2 Max and the new higher and stringent RAFFT. Quite clearly, SP's were not given the required time to get themselves fit enough for OP's. Hence, the new higher standards were introduced, and now we have a much fitter deployable RAF.

Also, again going back to 2004, if I can remember correctly, there was at least 3 x C17 with med evacs on them. Alot of those being RTU, were suffering from Heat Exhaustion, Severe Dehydration etc.....all effects of being unfit.

In my opinion and experience, only those who are lazy and unfit, moan about the RAFFT. And I also fail to see the downside of being given some time off in works time to get down the gym.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Please look at my original post to see what I was giving my opinion on. Lack of fitness on Operations will result in many different problems.

I know for a fact, that there were alot of people being sent back to the UK, for many reasons which could be directly attributed to a lack of fitness as a main factor.

So is it your opinion, or a statement of fact? I'm confused, please clarify.

Once upon a time, fitness was something to which we as a Service only paid lip service. To keep the PTIs and the big cheeses happy, all you had to do was attempt the RAFFT. My first hot and sandy deployment came hot on the heels of a tour in Germany where failing to take advantage of duty free booze and fags was almost a criminal offence. Back then, I couldn't have passed the RAFFT in my car, and it was much easier at that time. Yet I completed my deployment through a Saudi Arabian summer without incident.

The RAFFT is here to stay, in that regard at least you are correct. And people have had 2 years to either accept the current system or move on. But it is very short-sighted to believe that everyone who finds it difficult must be lazy.

Edited to add: Fit people can suffer from heat exhaustion and dehydration too.

 

[vim_fuego]

Leckie1 I hope don't you sustain an injury that puts you into the bracket of 'lazy' that you have just put many into with your comments...Not all people who not doing the FT at the moment or who fail it are lazy at all.

 

[Downsizer]

Downsizer, I have never stated I had exact figures in any of my posts. My knowledge of how many were sent back were based on the numbers I saw in the Med Centre and talking to the Medical Staff there, who were a little miffed that so many SP's were so unfit, they couldnt deal with the extreme heat (a direct link to poor fitness).

As someone else has said on here, 2004 was in the days pre VO2 Max and the new higher and stringent RAFFT. Quite clearly, SP's were not given the required time to get themselves fit enough for OP's. Hence, the new higher standards were introduced, and now we have a much fitter deployable RAF.

Also, again going back to 2004, if I can remember correctly, there was at least 3 x C17 with med evacs on them. Alot of those being RTU, were suffering from Heat Exhaustion, Severe Dehydration etc.....all effects of being unfit.

In my opinion and experience, only those who are lazy and unfit, moan about the RAFFT. And I also fail to see the downside of being given some time off in works time to get down the gym.

Ball park it, you said you knew for fact that large numbers were sent home....

I was in Basra in 2004 and recall nobody getting sent home for being unfit, nor anybody talking about unfit people getting sent home, and I'm sure that would have been a hot topic.

 

[Leckie1]

So is it your opinion, or a statement of fact? I'm confused, please clarify.

Once upon a time, fitness was something to which we as a Service only paid lip service. To keep the PTIs and the big cheeses happy, all you had to do was attempt the RAFFT. My first hot and sandy deployment came hot on the heels of a tour in Germany where failing to take advantage of duty free booze and fags was almost a criminal offence. Back then, I couldn't have passed the RAFFT in my car, and it was much easier at that time. Yet I completed my deployment through a Saudi Arabian summer without incident.

The RAFFT is here to stay, in that regard at least you are correct. And people have had 2 years to either accept the current system or move on. But it is very short-sighted to believe that everyone who finds it difficult must be lazy.

Tru Blue Jack, If you were in a room tomorrow morning, and there was 2 other people in there with you. If one said to the other " I am Superman". Could you come on here tomorrow night and say, "I know for a fact he said it, because I was there" ??
Its a fact to me, because I was there, and I know what I saw and what I was told. However, I am unable to produce any exact facts and figures for you, and Ive never said I could.

Also, please show me where I say, everyone who finds it difficult is lazy.
Its not about people finding it difficult, its about people moaning and putting nothing into it that annoys me.
Anyone who shows a positive attitude to it, and acknowledges why it is important to pass it, should get every bit of help they can. And as far as I know, that's exactly what happens. PTI's are bending over backwards to get people through it.

 

[Downsizer]

Its a fact to me, because I was there, and I know what I saw and what I was told. However, I am unable to produce any exact facts and figures for you, and Ive never said I could.

Estimate then, because your credibilty is flying out the window.

 

[Leckie1]

Ball park it, you said you knew for fact that large numbers were sent home....

I was in Basra in 2004 and recall nobody getting sent home for being unfit, nor anybody talking about unfit people getting sent home, and I'm sure that would have been a hot topic.

No, I wont ball park it, because I have no figures to back that up. Just because you didnt hear about it, doesnt mean it was happening.
Fact is, because of the amount of SP's being sent home due to fitness, the RAF introduced the new standards. The clue is in there somewhere !!
I will give you a clue, Big problems on OOA's in the Middle East due to unfit SP's being RTU. Result.............introduced new higher and more stringent RAFFT to ensure SP's are fitter on det's !!
Or do you think the RAF has taken the descision lightly, to give ALL SP's at least 3 x 50 mins PT a week. It must be costing a small fortune to implement, however, it is paramount to ensure, a) SP's on Det are FIT and b) SP's on det don't get RTU because they can't hack it in the sun.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Also, please show me where I say, everyone who finds it difficult is lazy.

OK, read back a couple of posts.

In my opinion and experience, only those who are lazy and unfit, moan about the RAFFT.

Face it, you made an ill-judged comment for which you have been justly challenged. I don't think anyone here honestly believes that a military arm should be anything other than physically fit. However, the debate over the definition of 'fitness' will go on and on. I am neither lazy nor unfit yet I moan about the RAFFT regularly and will continue to do so.

 

[Discombobulated]

And as far as I know, that's exactly what happens. PTI's are bending over backwards to get people through it.

Not entirely true (or not what i have seen anyway).
I know of someone who has been on remedial for many months now, and his remedial consists of 3 sessions a week. These can be organised PT sessions in the form of circuits that is available for all levels of fitness, or a trip to the cardio suite armed with a TGS key for the machines.
With RAFFT failures doing circuits alongside fit people they are not really getting any special encouragement as the fit people make them look bad anyway. If the circuits were aimed solely at the RAFFT failures then they could all receive equal encouragement and not feel put off by training alongside fit people (i know of 2 people who are put off by the thought of training alongside fit people).
Also, with the TGS key system, if the treadmill goes to fast, the person on the machine can stand either side of the conveyor belt and the machine knows no different, so the program is logged as completed and the PTI believes that this person is achieving the goals set for them.
Remedial should be set classes for RAFFT failures being taken by at least one PTI to ensure the max effort is being put in by all.
I have nothing against PTI's, but they don't seem to be as pro-active as they should be IMO.
But on the flip side, if someone has no interest in getting fit then i suppose it makes no difference as there will always be an excuse.