FSTA, CAA and Civil Licencing.

[Bluntend]

So, FSTA is due to enter service when the VC10s and Tristars are retired (pick your date for when you reckon that'll be). The FSTA will be an Airbus A330-200 and maintained under CAA Civil Owned Military Registered (COMR) rules so the aircraft will have to be maintained to civil regulations by holders of an appropriate category of EASA Part-66 Aircraft Maintenance Licence. It is expected that the FSTA specific groundcrew will comprise RAF Technicians (A Tech M and A Tech Av CTs, Sgts and Cpls) alongside 'contractor-employed sponsored reservists' (?). RAF Technicians posted to FSTA will receive training leading towards the award of an EASA Part-66 Maintenance Licence in Cats A, B1 and B2 depending on rank and trade. Now, I am happy to admit that I know little of the civil licencing process so anyone better informed please feel free to update my logic. Surely though, this is simply an RAF sponsored ticket to a well paid, minimum hassle job in civi-street? What will stop techies being posted to FSTA either by volunteering or via the usual posting system, getting their licences and then jumping ship for a cosy job at BA or Virgin? No guard, no OOAs, stability for your family - seems too good to be true (so it probably is). Anyone know any more...?

 

[Billy Whizz]

Heard about this a while back. Apparently they were going to try and stop people who do get to work on FSTA being head hunted but I can't see how. European Law and all that!

 

[Billy Whizz]

Just heard from a reliable source there will be a 3 year tie in for people put through their licenses by the RAF.

 

[matkat]

Gents sorry to disappoint You but the RAF will introduce a system which will have 80% off the civilian criteria The RAF recognise that Their inability to keep fully trained EASA 145 servicing Personnel and for this reason will not allow You to get full accreditation what the system will be is called MAOS or Mil 145 the wording is that certifying staff in cat B1 and B2 will have "Military equivalent" experience the way it will work is similar to what You will are doing now but will still give You no credit whatsoever towards EASA part 66 I envisage that Your training will be better and more in line with civil aviation and in fact all military aircraft in the future will be maintained under Mil 145 criteria but this will cut NO Ice with the CAA and will still require to pass all the relevent modules and will still require the 1 year experience that is required at present as presently there are no plans to train You under part 147,sorry to tell You all this as You probably don"t want to hear it and You can trust Me totally about this info.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Thanks for that - clear as mud! Knew there'd be a catch though!

 

[fugmeister general]

why is it that if you worked for a civilian company they would train you upto the requisit standard.... but the raf train you to a standard that suits themself... then pay you to retrain through resettlement i am sure if they wanted you to be a plumber they would have trained you before hand

 

[Jag Fag]

The RAF providing a full CAA qualificatiion - it'll never happen. People will leave the service in droves (even more so) once attaining the qualification. Years ago, the firemen did the same: join up, do the training then PVR and join the civvy fire service (the RAF then altered the contract to keep the vollyball players in for a few years).

 

[goatblower]

Try looking in this months TRADEWISE pamphlet....It says black and white that certain Cpls, Sgts and C/Ts will be trained to JAR66, and to keep your blue book up to date if you want to apply, as the CAA will look at everyone to see they have the right experience....Example, do not apply if you have worked in a bay for the last few years 'cause the CAA will refuse you. Apparently there is somekind of tie in being evolved to keep the individuals in the RAF, but there will also be a financial renumeration package to retain trained individuals.

This opens up another can of worms as who wants to be on a fast jet Sqn, when a guy of the same rank/experience on the A/T fleet is earning up to £7 Grand a year more????

 

[matkat]

Try looking in this months TRADEWISE pamphlet....It says black and white that certain Cpls, Sgts and C/Ts will be trained to JAR66, and to keep your blue book up to date if you want to apply, as the CAA will look at everyone to see they have the right experience....Example, do not apply if you have worked in a bay for the last few years 'cause the CAA will refuse you. Apparently there is somekind of tie in being evolved to keep the individuals in the RAF, but there will also be a financial renumeration package to retain trained individuals.

This opens up another can of worms as who wants to be on a fast jet Sqn, when a guy of the same rank/experience on the A/T fleet is earning up to £7 Grand a year more????

As I previously said They were contemplating this but in October I met with the head of the consultitive group Who told Me the plans were now cancelled and that Their(RAF)training will only be 80% equivalent to civilian EASA 147 required standards and this is is geared so that You will not get a EASA part 66 license if need be(and this is what We are gearing up for)is to recruit existing 66 license holders this is such an issue that at present We are trying to determine how to keep existing part 66 type rated personnel Who We recruit current on type as They would not be fullfilling the criteria to keep Their license current (6 months in past 2 year rule)as They would not be working on civilian registered aircraft.The crux of the matter is simply that the RAF know that if They train You to license standard You would walk,and why would they RAF train certain Cpls Sgts and C/Ts? surely these would be precisely the People They would not train as They would have to go back to training again passing all the required modules could take over a year(remember no exemptions)surely the raw recruit would be the best idea as They would have many years of production left.Believe Me I know a great deal about this as for "Tradewise" I cannot comment on this as have never seen it but to state that will train certain Individuals to JAR 66 license is factually incorrect as this no longer exists as its been replaced by EASA 66.One further thing is under EASA regulations military Personnel have to have at least one years experience after passing all the required modules before He can excersise license privledges(+holding appropriate type rating/company approval)unfortunately now the CAA cannot decide to "look at Your blue book"and decide if You are eligible at is now upto EASA and Their rules are previously stated.
I am not trying to pi$$ on Your party(I was once an engine tech in the RAF)but I have to point out the realities the only way You will ever get a EASA part 66 license is to pass ALL the modules if anyone wants any more detail please do not hesitate to PM Me or ask through the form I genuinely want to give You best advise and it will not come from some pamphlet,sorry.

 

[Rigga]

EASA Part 66 Licences

EASA Part 66 Licences

EASA Part 66 Licences are issued by the CAA as a "Competent Authority" of the EASA - but to the strict Rules contained in Pt 66 (Licensing) and Pt 147 (Schools).
(Only strict for the UK! but thats another thread)

(EASA - AMC & GM to IR CR (EC) No.2042/2003 Annexes III & IV - Part-66 & Part-147)

(www.easa.eu.int)

If the RAF trains you to only 80% of these rules - you cannot get a Licence.

If you do not work on a "Civilian Aircraft", which must also be on a Civil Aircraft Maintenance Program, for 1 year - you cannot get a Licence.

(Trend forming?)

Even if the RAF went to Civil Owned Military Registered (COMR) systems (which I believe they must) "they" would still need Approved and Type Rated Aircraft Maintenance Technicians (B1 & B2 Licences) to cover operating the Civilian Owned aircraft at almost all its operating bases - See the difficulties for FBH at Middle Wallop, Shawbury, and now Cyprus, for many years of trying to get away without Licences.

I can't even see A Licences (Approved Mechanics) coming out of this set-up for Military Personnel (except for some aircrew - if they could get the training and experience above).

 

[Kwaka69]

Its a confusing situation for peeps in civvy street to get their licence without adding the airforce into the mix.
The TRADEWISE pamphlet makes no sense at all, the blue book accounts for nothing in the eyes of the CAA or EASA at the moment. If the airbus does come into service we will only be leasing them so the law will require them to be maintained by fully EASA qualified techs. Also according to the FSTA contract their civvy owners can use them for civvy work in 'quiet spells'.

@Matkat : If you are no longer in the Airforce how do you come by this info ? I was talking to the trade sponsors last week and they tell a different story from you.

 

[Rigga]

So.... Just how many civvies need air-to-air refueling?

 

[Kwaka69]

@ Rigga the FSTA is supposed to be dual role rather than fixed like our 10`s but don`t know where they are going to get storage capacity when in tanker role.

Like most things in the mob..... we are going to be the last to know

 

[Rigga]

Oh dear!

I see... large openings in fuselage sides... and Roll-on Roll-off Bag tanks on ball-bearing floors.....

I see... Seats on roller pallets ready for quick changes to Pax work and I see Seats lying on Hangar floors when on Postal night routes (lots of Freight work coming up)...

Above all else, I see... many people trying to get a huge amount of money from very few airplanes... and not paying much for the privelidge of working LAE's to the bone, either.

It doesn't look at all like my signature says below.....

 

[goatblower]

The first 2 are due into service 'soon', and they are ex-lufthansa jobbers to give experience and training to the master race. As yet, no-one knows who will fix them..
BTW.....don't know when 'soon' is.....sorry.DT_Xtremez_06:

 

[firestorm]

The RAF providing a full CAA qualificatiion - it'll never happen. People will leave the service in droves (even more so) once attaining the qualification. Years ago, the firemen did the same: join up, do the training then PVR and join the civvy fire service (the RAF then altered the contract to keep the vollyball players in for a few years).

Not actually true.
When you leave the 2 bob RAF fire you have to go through the same recruitment and training process as anyone else.

 

[sumps]

Just to recap..

"FUTURE STRATEGIC TANKER AIRCRAFT (FSTA)"

"The Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) is planned to enter service towards the end of this decade to replace the VC10 and the Tristar Fleets. The FSTA will be the Airbus A330-200 aircraft and will be maintained under Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) Civil Owned Military Registered aircraft rules, in association with Airworthiness Notice No.28. This means that the CAA will oversee the airworthiness of the aircraft and that requires the aircraft to be maintained to civil regulations by holders of an appropriate category of EASA Part-66 Aircraft Maintenance Licence.

The ground crew will comprise RAF mechanics and technicians, alongside contractor-employed sponsored reservists. It is expected that RAF technicians (A Tech M and A Tech Av chf techs sgt and cpl) posted to FSTA will receive training leading to the award of an EASA Part-66 Aircraft Maintenance Licence in categories A, B1 or B2, depending on rank and trade. Volunteers for FSTA will be sought in the future from suitably experienced RAF technicians. This experience will need to acceptable to the CAA and selection criteria are currently being developed to ensure that the most suitable people are selected.

Part of the CAA process, which leads to the award of an EASA Part-66 Aircraft Maintenance Licence, requires an applicant to have acquired the necessary experience for the licence category being applied for. Each applicant is considered by the CAA on an individual basis and evidence of acquired experience will need to be provided for scrutiny when requested. RAF technicians intending to volunteer for duty on FSTA are recommend to have an up-to-date Log Book, with their ‘Record of Experience’ properly certified and validated. The Log Book could be section 3 to RAF Form 7502 (Personal Development Record), RAF Form 6859 (Tradesmans’ record of training Experience) or Civil CAP741 (Aircraft Maintainers Long Book)."
(TRADEWISE Nov2005)

Having looked at this and the EASA & CAA and listened to those in the know, there is no way that the legislation will allow a "partial license " any one signing off work has to hold a full license obtained from an EASA147 approved organization.

How do we get around the "one year hands civil aircraft" this means that the person gaining a Part 66 will either have to have exposure in civiy street first or gain a license by working on the FSTA then gain the license after one year of being on the aircraft - and we all know what our entry into service rates are like!!!

The only way I can see the RAF stopping the brain drain (aside from a short term hold over clause added to your contract) is to push the entire technical cadre through a B1/2, because the Air Force know it will be physically impossible for Civiy Street to absorb us all at once!!!

Personally I like goatblower modus operandi - in the Med growing grapes drinking wine - stuff getting a license get a degree (or retrain completely) and give yourself greater flexibility when you hit the streets. (GB my congratulations and a copy of my CV).

 

[Rigga]

Please read:

http://www.airmech.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=5264

Most of this thread is discussed there.

It'll all boil down to money in the end. And not for the RAF either!