SLR and a Matchstick.. Urban myth???

[rest have risen above me]

During a conversation whilst sat on a sand bag the subject of guns came up.
The relative good things about the different guns were discussed and then the question about sticking a matchstick in a bit of the SLR's workings to make it fully auto. I've never seen it done or had it adequately explained so think it may be a myth. Can one of you older plumbers confirm or deny the facts please. (Gem the SLR was that new fangled gun that was just entering service as you left ...he he..)

 

[spike7451]

During a conversation whilst sat on a sand bag the subject of guns came up.
The relative good things about the different guns were discussed and then the question about sticking a matchstick in a bit of the SLR's workings to make it fully auto. I've never seen it done or had it adequately explained so think it may be a myth. Can one of you older plumbers confirm or deny the facts please. (Gem the SLR was that new fangled gun that was just entering service as you left ...he he..)

Yes,it can be done by interupting the sear on the trigger mech.Never seen it done myself but I spent a few years in Small Arms Bay..
You can also make a 9mil Browning go full auto by jamming the firing pin forward or having a dodgy firing pin retaining plate,which we had years ago.(prone to cracking & we had to examing every one before & after use! Which was a pain in the ARRSE!!!

 

[gemarriott]

During a conversation whilst sat on a sand bag the subject of guns came up.
The relative good things about the different guns were discussed and then the question about sticking a matchstick in a bit of the SLR's workings to make it fully auto. I've never seen it done or had it adequately explained so think it may be a myth. Can one of you older plumbers confirm or deny the facts please. (Gem the SLR was that new fangled gun that was just entering service as you left ...he he..)

Cheeky young feckerDT_Xtremez_14:

A bit more to it than just a matchstick but it was relatively simple to do not that I ever actually saw it done, but the principle was explained briefly during the small arms phase of my mechs course. The FN version was fully auto, there was a third position on the safety catch, the matchstick mod I believe (reaching into the darkest recesses of my brain where I usually dread to go) was to hold down a safety sear which allowed the safety catch to move to that third position. Then since this sear was held back while the trigger remained pressed the hammer remained free to move without a separate trigger press to operate said sear.

 

[firestorm]

Were they a big improvement on flintlocks Gem?DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[rest have risen above me]

Cheers spike and Gem. I knew you'd try and keep up with technology gem DT_Xtremez_30:DT_Xtremez_19:

 

[Pikeman]

You could also double up the springs in a Bren mag to give it a 30 round mag. The only prob is as Gem says, once the trigger was pulled there was nothing to stop it. So the SLR would fire all rounds........apparently, cause we were not allowed to do such a dangerous thing.DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[MattBombHead]

Its exactley the same pricipal as what happens when you flick the switch on an L85 from R to A.

The interuptor sear is held back, allowing the hammer to strike the firing pin each time the bolt is locked.

 

[Dave-exfairy]

Perhaps this one might be a bit too far for the bombheads, i've heard that one of the reasons why we switched to the 5.56mm round was that it causes greater trauma to the enemy compared to the 7.62mm round. In that instead of going straight through the enemy and sucking everything out like the 7.62 did, the 5.56 will tumble inside turning everything to mush.
I've also heard that the lads out in Afghanistan are reporting that the Taliban are not being put down that much by the 5.56 and it takes a lot to stop them.

 

[Rambling Sid]

I had heard that we got the FN without full auto as they thought we would waste the rounds.......!!!! I always felt sure that when adrenaline was brown and heading south through your pants, you could pull that SLR trigger fast enough to almost make it full auto.

Mind you this comes from a guy whose only claim to fame on the range was that I was always the first one to run out of ammo.

 

[shettie]

Perhaps this one might be a bit too far for the bombheads, i've heard that one of the reasons why we switched to the 5.56mm round was that it causes greater trauma to the enemy compared to the 7.62mm round. In that instead of going straight through the enemy and sucking everything out like the 7.62 did, the 5.56 will tumble inside turning everything to mush.
I've also heard that the lads out in Afghanistan are reporting that the Taliban are not being put down that much by the 5.56 and it takes a lot to stop them.

I recall something about the SBS who fought against the Argies at Top Malo reported that the armalite rounds had difficulty penetrating the greatcoats the argies were wearing...

 

[steve_k243]

The SLR was originally designed to fire a .280? round. Along come the Septics who decide that NATO will use the 7.62 x 51mm round (.308 Winchester hunting ammo)
FN continued to manufacture the full auto FAL (SLR) chambered for 7.62 despite it being uncontollable on auto, the only ones that were had bipods and heavier barrels and used as LMG (Aus, Canada) Another thing that didn't help was a line of recoil above the butt, ie the muzzle jumps unlike the M16 which near as dammit recoils straight back.

When the UK decided on the SLR they were redesigned to be manufactured in inches rather than MM (apart from bore) so the full auto was dropped knowing the 7.62X51 to be too powerful.

As for Terry getting up after being hit some of it must have to do with ammunition. The US are now looking at upping the M4/16 to 6.8 mm calibre.

All modern HV rifle bullets tumble when they encounter resistance (bone etc)
Basic physics, the heavier arse end will try to overtake the lighter front. I was once told that the old Lee Enfield .303 bullets were hollow under the tip to enhance the tumble and frag effect.

 

[spike7451]

Perhaps this one might be a bit too far for the bombheads, i've heard that one of the reasons why we switched to the 5.56mm round was that it causes greater trauma to the enemy compared to the 7.62mm round. In that instead of going straight through the enemy and sucking everything out like the 7.62 did, the 5.56 will tumble inside turning everything to mush.
I've also heard that the lads out in Afghanistan are reporting that the Taliban are not being put down that much by the 5.56 and it takes a lot to stop them.

Cheeky cnut!
Going back many moons to Tossford & my S/Arms course,the tip of the 5.56 was hollow with a steel? core,the bullet would mushroom on impact & the core would ensure that it's tumble.
However the rounds (initially) made for the SA80 (by us!) were'nt fully compatable in other 5.56 weapons & visa versa.

 

[Portcullis]

Cheeky young feckerDT_Xtremez_14:

A bit more to it than just a matchstick but it was relatively simple to do not that I ever actually saw it done, but the principle was explained briefly during the small arms phase of my mechs course. The FN version was fully auto, there was a third position on the safety catch, the matchstick mod I believe (reaching into the darkest recesses of my brain where I usually dread to go) was to hold down a safety sear which allowed the safety catch to move to that third position. Then since this sear was held back while the trigger remained pressed the hammer remained free to move without a separate trigger press to operate said sear.

Crows the lot a ya!!! This was an old SAS trick I learned in the TA before joining up.

Not a matchstick, but a cardboard book match (the sort you used to get in a 24 hr rat pack)

Break the weapon and pull the trigger, thus allowing the hammer to move fully forward. You should see a step in the safety catch arm (? not a plumber so not sure of technical name) that lifts the sear that holds the hammer back between shots. That will allow you to fire full R&R only, no single shot. Safety still works though.

I've never done it myself, you understand........DT_Xtremez_30: and I have only ever seen it done with blank, my foolhardiness would only stretch so far - even then!!

Now, what about the old trick of putting a Thunderflash inside a schermuley to give you an airburst (or when fighting the boxheads, a ground to ground capability)?DT_Xtremez_42:

Health and Safety???????

 

[Ex-Bay]

Cheeky cnut!
Going back many moons to Tossford & my S/Arms course,the tip of the 5.56 was hollow with a steel? core,the bullet would mushroom on impact & the core would ensure that it's tumble.
However the rounds (initially) made for the SA80 (by us!) weren't fully compatible in other 5.56 weapons & visa versa.

My information was that it's a bit of Tungsten in the tip.
Personally, I cannot see it mushroom out in that configuration (there are strict rules under the Geneva Convention about it, or so I'm told).

 

[steve_k243]

Tungsten won't mushroom, it was the core of AP 30mm ADEN rounds.
If anything it's there to get through body armour and non armoured vehicles.

 

[Pikeman]

To try and answer the question of why the lighter round.

It is to do with trying to cause long term problems rather than just getting a body count.

My apologise if this seems a bit blunt, and it is in no way trying to make out that any of it is good.

7.62- Likely to kill outright. Leave the body until after the battle. Bury or repat.

5.56- Wound, injured person is likely to scream their head off. Thus effecting morale of those around, encourages people to try to rescue victim even if under fire. At least one person required to carry casulty to rear area. Thus removing more than people from the battle. Medical treatment required thus putting pressure on logistics (medic supplies and rehab) People back home have morale effected by seeing wounded.

That is probably a very brief explanation, but hopefully you can get the jist.

 

[MattBombHead]

To try and answer the question of why the lighter round.

It is to do with trying to cause long term problems rather than just getting a body count.

My apologise if this seems a bit blunt, and it is in no way trying to make out that any of it is good.

7.62- Likely to kill outright. Leave the body until after the battle. Bury or repat.

5.56- Wound, injured person is likely to scream their head off. Thus effecting morale of those around, encourages people to try to rescue victim even if under fire. At least one person required to carry casulty to rear area. Thus removing more than people from the battle. Medical treatment required thus putting pressure on logistics (medic supplies and rehab) People back home have morale effected by seeing wounded.

That is probably a very brief explanation, but hopefully you can get the jist.

Agreed.

In short, injure someone, and it'll take more people to 'care' for them than it will to care for a dead body.

Look at how our guys operate in Afghan etc. If someone is wounded, the patrol will generally try and break contact, and get the casualty off the battlefield.

Slightly off topic....There is also an AP (or JSP maybe) that details the expected damage of all the NATO rounds have on a human body.

 

[Teh Wal]

I recall something about the SBS who fought against the Argies at Top Malo ...

Sorry to be picky but twas the R.M. Mountain & Arctic Warfare Cadre who carried out that particular action at Top Malo House. DT_Xtremez_14:

I was led to believe that the decision to move to a smaller calibre weapon also had its roots in a re-appraisel of battlefield tactics and the realisation that we no longer needed a individual weapon system that could bring down an elephant at a thousand paces plus the weight saving of 5.56mm over 7.62mm ammo. I spose the L85 was also a gap filler - i.e. fulfilled the needs of both the SLR and SMG in both battlefield and garrison situations.

 

[Dave-exfairy]

That's fair enough Teh Wal, but the Hereford Hooligans, and I presume the Poole lads as well, have never used the L85, they use a M-16/Armalite type and interestingly enough, the H&K G3 which uses a 7.62mm round.

 

[he_who_dares_rodney]

IIRC there was a report last year stating the USMC had started carrying old M14's as part of the patrol make up due to the improved stopping power

Also carried by the two snipers on "Black Hawk Down"