This has hit the news today. The story is that the White Phos which is used for Illum was used against insurgents, in Falujah, as a chemical weapon, this is in breach of international law and technically makes the user a war criminal. This story has, apparantly, appeared in an American military magazine. As usual the media has got a grip of this and is currently wheeling out all the experts to tell the civilian population how bad this stuff is and how those nasty Americans used "shake and bake" to fire into peoples houses and kill people. Question is do we believe this and, without giving the newshounds who read these forums a chance to quote a "service source", how do we feel about the media waving this around, especially as we, as service personnel in Iraq, get tarred with the same brush as some stupid yanks, and become "baby killing scum". On the radio at the moment Col Mike Dewar (Retd) has pointed out that, just by using it properly, you could contravene all the laws, if it fell into a group of insurgents, he also points out that in the heat of battle this could happen. Mods if this post is a bit controversial then by all means pull it, but I think, without some of the vitriol that appears in some posts, we could get a reasonably good for and against arguement that may make people think.
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Yanks use White Phos!
- Thread starter Stax
- Start date
B
Bluntend
Guest
Following a quick Google search, I found this:
"Use of white phosphorus is not specifically banned by any treaty, however the 1980 Convention on Conventional Weapons (Protocol III) prohibits the use of incendiary weapons against civilian populations or by air attack against military forces that are located within concentrations of civilians...The United States is among the nations that are parties to the convention but have not signed protocol III."
(Another treaty the US agrees with in principle but isn't prepared to be governed by - similar in a way to the Kyoto Treaty I guess...)
Depending on exactly how it is being used (if it is actually being used) will determine whether Col Dewer has a point or not.
"Use of white phosphorus is not specifically banned by any treaty, however the 1980 Convention on Conventional Weapons (Protocol III) prohibits the use of incendiary weapons against civilian populations or by air attack against military forces that are located within concentrations of civilians...The United States is among the nations that are parties to the convention but have not signed protocol III."
(Another treaty the US agrees with in principle but isn't prepared to be governed by - similar in a way to the Kyoto Treaty I guess...)
Depending on exactly how it is being used (if it is actually being used) will determine whether Col Dewer has a point or not.
From what I can gather. The yanks worked out that hitting a building with battling insurgents in it with the stuff cleared the building of insurgents quite effectively, at which point they they dealt with them in a more traditional American way (shot them dead).
They were going to kill these guys anyway and this was the quickest and most practical way of getting to them, if they didn't they ran the risk of being killed themselves.
IMHO I think the press are just having another mass hysteria session again, the guys on the ground dealt with the situation they were in, in the safest fashion available to them. Sod the insurgents, if they want to take pot shots at the allied troops, don't expect not to get shot back at (especially when its the Yanks).
They were going to kill these guys anyway and this was the quickest and most practical way of getting to them, if they didn't they ran the risk of being killed themselves.
IMHO I think the press are just having another mass hysteria session again, the guys on the ground dealt with the situation they were in, in the safest fashion available to them. Sod the insurgents, if they want to take pot shots at the allied troops, don't expect not to get shot back at (especially when its the Yanks).
B
Bluntend
Guest
One of the big problems with the whole situation is that Insurgent and Civilian are pretty hard to diferentiate between - christ, the yanks have enough trouble distinguishing between friend and foe at the best of times...
T
The Green Scopie
Guest
From
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-30/appf.htm
F-7. NR16
Type: Smoke. (Figure F-7)
Weight: 284 grams.
Length: 101 millimeters.
Diameter: 50 millimeters.
Body Material: Tinned Steel.
Filler Material: White phosphorus.
Fuze Type: Delay.
Fuze Delay: 4 seconds.
Range Thrown: 37 meters.
I thought all 'Proper' Smoke Grenades were phosphorus. Not the signal smoke things you get on exercise but the ones issued for ops.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-30/appf.htm
F-7. NR16
Type: Smoke. (Figure F-7)
Weight: 284 grams.
Length: 101 millimeters.
Diameter: 50 millimeters.
Body Material: Tinned Steel.
Filler Material: White phosphorus.
Fuze Type: Delay.
Fuze Delay: 4 seconds.
Range Thrown: 37 meters.
I thought all 'Proper' Smoke Grenades were phosphorus. Not the signal smoke things you get on exercise but the ones issued for ops.
B
Bluntend
Guest
"...their polititions are smarter than ours"
Who isn't?
Who isn't?
If the yanks were targeting it on legit buildings with insurgents in i.e. they were being fired upon from the building. Surely flushing the building out to get at the enemy is the best way to prevent civilian casualties.
To be honest the whole Iraq thing is turning into a your buggered if you do and your buggered if you don't.
Lets not forget that this is a war and nasty things (mistakes) happen, its always going to be best to get them first and answer any questions later.
Did the guys know they were breaking any rules? "Ignorance is no excuse" in this case would be a cop out, since the "experts" are debating whether or not its illegal.
In my opinion the guys just did what they thought was the best way of saving their own asses, and who can blame them.
To be honest the whole Iraq thing is turning into a your buggered if you do and your buggered if you don't.
Lets not forget that this is a war and nasty things (mistakes) happen, its always going to be best to get them first and answer any questions later.
Did the guys know they were breaking any rules? "Ignorance is no excuse" in this case would be a cop out, since the "experts" are debating whether or not its illegal.
In my opinion the guys just did what they thought was the best way of saving their own asses, and who can blame them.
B
Bombe Suprise
Guest
Wot the fuss with phos?
Wot the fuss with phos?
So the Yanks used WP - so what? What do the press hacks think parachute flares, illum rounds etc are made from, fluffy light? I saw the original article that reported the use of WP in Iraq, it was an Italian TV Documentary. There has already been banter in Italy amongst the politicos regarding how this programme came out just as the Italian govt was due to debate the date of the withdrawal of Italian troops - coincidence anyone??
Personally I dont see what the problem is - the US Army/Marines, like our own troops, prefer to fight at night - because it gives them the advantage. They use WP, be it a grenade, artillery round, mortar round or air launched rocket (by the way there is no such device as a Phosphorus Bomb, the nearest you get is a mortar round - have a dig on FAS and Global Security, there are all sorts of wacky weapons out there (thermobaric, tandem shaped charge fragmentation, high explosive incendiary etc, but no Phos Bombs) for either illumination or target marking.
Get the tree huggers to go back in their box.....reminds me of that ludicrous survey conducted a few years back that concluded that firing guns was hazardous to your hearing......
Wot the fuss with phos?
So the Yanks used WP - so what? What do the press hacks think parachute flares, illum rounds etc are made from, fluffy light? I saw the original article that reported the use of WP in Iraq, it was an Italian TV Documentary. There has already been banter in Italy amongst the politicos regarding how this programme came out just as the Italian govt was due to debate the date of the withdrawal of Italian troops - coincidence anyone??
Personally I dont see what the problem is - the US Army/Marines, like our own troops, prefer to fight at night - because it gives them the advantage. They use WP, be it a grenade, artillery round, mortar round or air launched rocket (by the way there is no such device as a Phosphorus Bomb, the nearest you get is a mortar round - have a dig on FAS and Global Security, there are all sorts of wacky weapons out there (thermobaric, tandem shaped charge fragmentation, high explosive incendiary etc, but no Phos Bombs) for either illumination or target marking.
Get the tree huggers to go back in their box.....reminds me of that ludicrous survey conducted a few years back that concluded that firing guns was hazardous to your hearing......
WP is not illegal in itself?
If used against combatants then it is a legitimate weapon.
Basically if you shoot it at somebody with the intention of burning them then it is ok, it is only when you shoot it at somebody with the intention of poisoning them with the toxic fumes it becomes a chemical weapon,
If used against combatants then it is a legitimate weapon.
Basically if you shoot it at somebody with the intention of burning them then it is ok, it is only when you shoot it at somebody with the intention of poisoning them with the toxic fumes it becomes a chemical weapon,
FootTapper
Sergeant
- 652
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does this mean that a convoy using smoke grenades to screen themselves from an attacker are in fact evil war criminals on a par with chemical ali?
hope so, i look up to him.
hope so, i look up to him.
B
Bombe Suprise
Guest
Only if
a. the squadies release the grenades
b. the occifer knew they were being released
Then its the Hague for the lot of them!!
PS If any of the squadies or occifers have recently earned medals for gallantry/leadership then its a dead cert....
a. the squadies release the grenades
b. the occifer knew they were being released
Then its the Hague for the lot of them!!
PS If any of the squadies or occifers have recently earned medals for gallantry/leadership then its a dead cert....
T
The Green Scopie
Guest
Saw in the paper today that it is illegal to use WP against civilian targets. But then it is illegal to attack any purely civilian facility anyway. If it has a military use (Telephone exchange being used by AD system, Power station supplying military base, Sniper hiding in a minaret etc) then it is considered dual use and therefore loses its protection.