• Welcome to the E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial RAF Rumour Network.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

The Truth Has Finally Prevailed

M

Mug?

Flight Sergeant
1,347
2
38
Is this how justice works?

Is this how justice works?

Keep having inquests until you get the answer you like? Is that how it works?

Why is this a police V fans standoff?
Reading the latest verdicts makes me cross as a neutral.

They found the Fans in NO WAY had any influence on the Deaths.????
No influence?????? REALLY??? Does this not discredit the whole inquirey again?
So IF
They had got there a earlier, would the outcome be the same? Maybe.
If they had gone to the sides rather than the tunnel would it have been the same?
If they had not exerted any physical pressure to get into the pens would it have been the same? No.
If there had not been a history of trouble would the police have acted differently?

I know there has been a cover up and people have lied in court and that is inexcusable and should be punished using the perjury laws and such like.

BUT
there were similar warning signs at previous games, there were massive failings at the ground and safety certificates, we must ALL remember there was a different atmosphere at grounds in those days. The police were in control for a reason and had to work in very difficult circumstances, fences were there for a reason, assumption of trouble was there for a reason.
Mistakes were made but the time lines are short. It appears to have escalated within 15 minutes. 3 minutes to decide if they should open the gate/ delay kickoff. More importantly they should have shut the tunnel off. They didn't and we know the result.
 
justintime129

justintime129

Warrant Officer
1000+ Posts
5,833
322
83
Mug? said:
Keep having inquests until you get the answer you like? Is that how it works?

Why is this a police V fans standoff?
Reading the latest verdicts makes me cross as a neutral.

They found the Fans in NO WAY had any influence on the Deaths.????
No influence?????? REALLY??? Does this not discredit the whole inquirey again?
Click to expand...

So you don't believe the verdict of the jury in the inquest who said that the tragedy was not the responsibilty of the fans. What do you know that they don't.
 
W

Warwick Hunt

Persona Non-Grata
1000+ Posts
1,484
4
38
Mug? said:
Keep having inquests until you get the answer you like? Is that how it works?

Why is this a police V fans standoff?
Reading the latest verdicts makes me cross as a neutral.

They found the Fans in NO WAY had any influence on the Deaths.????
No influence?????? REALLY??? .
Click to expand...

Really. Question 7. Answer: no fans were to blame.
 
ninjarabbi

ninjarabbi

Warrant Officer
2,908
545
113
Stevienics said:
Sure.

Who in their right mind would argue with that?

(and survive)
Click to expand...

And time for an inflammatory statement! In my opinion (just mine, no-one else is to blame) the police failed massively in opening a gate when they new that outside were a mass of fans trying to get in. But I would also suggest that the fans were ALSO at fault for stampeding into the stadium and exacerbating an overcrowding problem.

My opinion.
 
justintime129

justintime129

Warrant Officer
1000+ Posts
5,833
322
83
ninjarabbi said:
And time for an inflammatory statement! In my opinion (just mine, no-one else is to blame) the police failed massively in opening a gate when they new that outside were a mass of fans trying to get in. But I would also suggest that the fans were ALSO at fault for stampeding into the stadium and exacerbating an overcrowding problem.

My opinion.
Click to expand...

Police open gates. Fans enter open gate. Question 7. Fans weren't to blame. Accept it. You're only making things worse.
 
M

Mug?

Flight Sergeant
1,347
2
38
I Don't want to cause any hurt

I Don't want to cause any hurt

justintime129 said:
So you don't believe the verdict of the jury in the inquest who said that the tragedy was not the responsibilty of the fans. What do you know that they don't.
Click to expand...

I've not said in any way I thought they were responsible? And the official answers are below in reference to the situation AT THE LEPPINGS LANE TURNSTILES. I hope everyone already agrees that the allegations (ie the Sun) are complete rubbish and drunken pick pocketing fans was a complete disgusting lie. The way stuff has been handled and the issue of evidence being withheld etc is all a separate topic

I know the media and press in particular seem to have made it a fight between supporters and police.
The original inquiry always said Policing broke down. My fight would be with the ground/Eastwoods/FA.
If it hadn't happened that day it could have happened another day with another group of fans, there was evidence to suggest they had very lucky escapes in the past.

Question 7: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

No.

Further to that question: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

No.

I just think the perfectly natural, normal, expected and understandable behaviour of trying to get in to see your team when the game is starting may have contributed to a dangerous situation. The gate was not opened without reason.
 
W

Warwick Hunt

Persona Non-Grata
1000+ Posts
1,484
4
38
Shiny10 said:
I take it that you think the police, en masse, got behind said fans and pushed them so hard that they caused the crush?
Click to expand...

Question 7 - no fans were to blame. Of course, if you have brand new evidence to suggest that is NOT the case, then ease go ahead and produce it. Otherwise, please desist as all you are doing is making yourself look foolish.
 
busby1971

busby1971

Super Moderator
Staff member
1000+ Posts
6,949
572
113
Crowd dynamics gives the individual very little choice in how they can move.

Once they were under the control of the police, they took on the role of safety and evidently failed in this duty.
 
N

needsabiggerfuse

Flight Sergeant
1,880
0
0
busby1971 said:
Crowd dynamics gives the individual very little choice in how they can move...
Click to expand...

Indeed this is very true. At my last school, we had 8 classrooms with a 30 metre corridor and a stairwell at each end with a one-way system in operation. The corridor was a mere 2 metres wide. Therefore at lesson changeover time we could have around 200+ students leaving en masse (senior management did not like it if lessons finished early), and 200+ students arriving. On more than one occasion we had the situation where students had arrived early and were queuing outside their classroom, effectively halving the width of the corridor. Those arriving were completely unaware of what was happening up front. Not every student was, shall we say, sensible in this situation, and a certain amount of "You, ... , here, ... ,NOW!!!" had to be employed. Fortunately we never had a crush or a tragedy, but it used to give me the heebie-jeebies.
 
M

Mug?

Flight Sergeant
1,347
2
38
Read the question

Read the question

Warwick Hunt said:
Question 7 - no fans were to blame. Of course, if you have brand new evidence to suggest that is NOT the case, then ease go ahead and produce it. Otherwise, please desist as all you are doing is making yourself look foolish.
Click to expand...

OK no fans were to blame, I understand the need for Liverpool to know that.
Question 7 only asked about the situation at the turnstiles. Its not about Blame? I cant see where it mentions BLAME?
I guess it was to question if the behaviour of the fans influenced the police commander in opening the gate. I think what we saw from the footage, MAY have given him reason to open the gate to prevent injury/trouble escalating outside the ground we can see people are distressed and the police could not marshal the numbers.

I don't think anyone fans/ police /ambulance or ground staff wanted or thought this could happen. Yet they all played a part. There are so many if's and but's. One of the barriers broke under a surge after Beardsley hit the bar, what influence did that have? We don't want him in court, how much worse could this have been if he had scored!?

Its tragic and there were many mistakes that were made and changes were made, I just don't get this witch hunt against a police force which will have changed so much over the 27 years! Meanwhile the safety committee and ground seem to be let off.
 
W

Warwick Hunt

Persona Non-Grata
1000+ Posts
1,484
4
38
Mug? said:
I don't think anyone fans/ police /ambulance or ground staff wanted or thought this could happen. Yet they all played a part.
Click to expand...

No, you are implying that fans played a part in the disaster. An independent inquiry has ruled that this was not the case and that 96 victims were UNLAWFULLY killed.

https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/

The attached link provides the evidence of that fact.

Unless you have brand new evidence to the contrary, then you are waaaay off the mark.
 
S

Shiny10

SAC
133
3
18
Warwick Hunt said:
Question 7 - no fans were to blame. Of course, if you have brand new evidence to suggest that is NOT the case, then ease go ahead and produce it. Otherwise, please desist as all you are doing is making yourself look foolish.
Click to expand...

I would rather look foolish than be foolish.

I am sensible and intelligent enough to realise that not everything is black or white. NO ONE that day INTENDED ANYONE to die or be injured by their actions, whether fans or police, or have you got evidence to the contrary?
 
justintime129

justintime129

Warrant Officer
1000+ Posts
5,833
322
83
The previous year there was an outer cordon and we're all checked to see if we had tickets. The match passed off without incident. Fast forward 1 year and there's a new match commander been in post for a few weeks, totally out of his depth. There wasn't enough turnstiles at the Leppings Lane. Liverpool asked the FA to change the ends which the fans had, but they refused on the advice of the Police. Duckenfield could see all the fans going to the middle pen, he could also see it nearly full before he gave the order for the gate to be opened. He should have closed the middle pen but instead gave the order to open the gate. Then he lied for 27 years thinking only of himself.
 
W

Warwick Hunt

Persona Non-Grata
1000+ Posts
1,484
4
38
Shiny10 said:
I would rather look foolish than be foolish.

I am sensible and intelligent enough to realise that not everything is black or white. NO ONE that day INTENDED ANYONE to die or be injured by their actions, whether fans or police, or have you got evidence to the contrary?
Click to expand...

I'm sure that is the case, however the police/government/FA (delete as appropriate) decided to cover up their actions on that day and lie about it for 27 years.
 
Stevienics

Stevienics

Warrant Officer
1000+ Posts
4,931
107
63
This is true. Neither side conceded. Neither considered theirs was contributory to the disaster.

The unanimity of judgement without new revelations after 27 years is therefore rather surprising.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
7,553members
43,625threads
595,665posts
77online users
Top