FTRS the future of TG17

[muttywhitedog]

Being brutally honest, my trade could be heavily civilianised or put out to FTRS. All those career managers at High Wycombe could be FTRS. My job does not have a deployment role attached, so it could be FTRS or civvy. To me, the only posts that really need to be filled by blue suits are those on front line operational units.

Bearing in mind that around 40% of the trade is medically non-deployable, then would those who are fit to deploy actually notice if 40% of the posts were filled by FTRS?

But, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys - two weeks without a blue suit presence was all it took to get my lot in a state!

 

[Mug?]

outside view

outside view

I think it will all come down to costs, to say we need a military regular to dish out expenses, provide HR on Ops is a fairly weak argument.
I know many exercises where the only reason a tg17 went was to handle the money. There is a lot of admin to be done, booking flights, chasing SJARs, MAAing fitness failures and I know there are many other roles handed out to a section once they have manpower.

But the bean counters will see it as being able to employ a handfull of officers to oversee a contract with a few reservists, as being better than a load of feet on the ground that spend a large proportion of their time away from the office, expeds/ exercises/ duties/ operations/ sport.

 

[Downsizer]

According to the SDSR that isn't big at all. (the FE@R requirements are depressingly small)

Where are the FE@R figures published, I've not seen them...

 

[Climebear]

Where are the FE@R figures published, I've not seen them...

IIRC they're classified

 

[Climebear]

To me, the only posts that really need to be filled by blue suits are those on front line operational units.

Even those are not gauranteed. We already have a deployed squadron whose engineering support is proved by contractors (No 32(The Royal) Squadron and -IIRC- FSTA (No 10 Squadron) will be a contrantor (sponsored reserve)/regular mix. It won't take long for the bean counters to extrapolate that theory across other aircraft types. If after the initial deployment the environment is 'safe' enough for contractors then you don't need all a Force's squadrons to be manned by regulars - you just need a cadre to meet the force's FE@R requirements with contractors/reservists to meet an enduring commitment.

[irony mode on]

Of course we live in a world where contractors always deliver and have never had to be bailed out with the provision of military manpower.

[irony mode off]

 

[busby1971]

The Branch/Trade only has a future if those with the purse strings can be persuaded that there is a need.

What Tasks need to be done to provide a viable service

​

What is the most efficient way that the task be delivered effectively.

Build in a bit of risk for military uncertainties

If the trade becomes unviable then in all honesty a lot of jobs could be any trade obviously with a resultant drop in professionalism (however I've worked With TG17 who don't know what this word means).

 

[Realist78]

Being brutally honest, my trade could be heavily civilianised or put out to FTRS. All those career managers at High Wycombe could be FTRS. My job does not have a deployment role attached, so it could be FTRS or civvy. To me, the only posts that really need to be filled by blue suits are those on front line operational units.

Bearing in mind that around 40% of the trade is medically non-deployable, then would those who are fit to deploy actually notice if 40% of the posts were filled by FTRS?

But, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys - two weeks without a blue suit presence was all it took to get my lot in a state!

Now that's a shocker. Feck me, how can you twist a sock at a desk?:raf:

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

FSTA (No 10 Squadron) will be a contrantor (sponsored reserve)/regular mix. It won't take long for the bean counters to extrapolate that theory across other aircraft types.

I think the bean counters will choke on their cornflakes at the costs of getting LAE's into a danger spot. This is one area where even taking into account capitation costs a blue suiter will be cheaper.

And that is a situation that will only get worse once the current economic crisis starts to subside.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

Have the shinies done themselves up with the high pay band? Or has this been in the offing for longer than that?

In my opinion, whilst there are some tubes in TG17, on the whole they do a decent job and going civvy is not a good move, look at the fustercluck that was JPA when civvies were involved.

Better the devil you know I reckon.

 

[Climebear]

Where are the FE@R figures published, I've not seen them...

Been doing a bit of digging to see if I can find anything in the public domain. There is a post on PPRuNe that gives a FJ figure of 16 from 2015.

http://www.pprune.org/military-airc...nt-line-fast-jet-squadrons-2.html#post7286133

 

[Downsizer]

Been doing a bit of digging to see if I can find anything in the public domain. There is a post on PPRuNe that gives a FJ figure of 16 from 2015. http://www.pprune.org/military-airc...nt-line-fast-jet-squadrons-2.html#post7286133

16 FE@R doesn't equate to 16 jets though....

 

[Climebear]

I think the bean counters will choke on their cornflakes at the costs of getting LAE's into a danger spot. This is one area where even taking into account capitation costs a blue suiter will be cheaper.

And that is a situation that will only get worse once the current economic crisis starts to subside.

[Devil's Advocate mode on]

Maybe - however, as with us they won't be spending a large proportion of their time in 'danger zones'. Most of their time will be in the home locations where the bean counters will realise that - taking into account the other costs of Service personnel - they will appear cheap. Even when they deploy, chances are that they won't be deployed into a 'danger zone'. Neither the KIPION DOBs nor the ELLAMY DOBs could be considered as being in 'danger zones'. Even in 'danger-zones', the 2 EAWs in Afgahanistan already work in contractor-rich environments.

[Devil's Advocate mode off]

 

[Downsizer]

I think the bean counters will choke on their cornflakes at the costs of getting LAE's into a danger spot. This is one area where even taking into account capitation costs a blue suiter will be cheaper.And that is a situation that will only get worse once the current economic crisis starts to subside.

Exactely, 14 Sqns LAEs won't go forward hence the maintenance is carried out at a safer location...

 

[Climebear]

16 FE@R doesn't equate to 16 jets though....

It does equate to the number of jets we plan deploy.

If you only intend to deploy a max of 16 ac for the initial deployment then - the bean counters would argue - you only need groundcrew for 16 aircraft (ie 1 1/3 sqns' worth). The remaining aircraft that remain in the UK could be maintained by contractors who could deploy for subsequent roulement operations.

I am not personnally argueing for this - it is wrong on many levels; however, it is the 'right-of-arc' argument that is being being psuhed with the total force stuff.

There is a more authoritive statement in the MOD Business Plan that states that the Tornado Force will reduce form 40 to 18 FE by 2015: http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/21363C3C-5452-435D-9D6C-7B73069B6E27/0/mod_plan_final_11_06_12_P1.pdf

 

[True Blue Jack]

Exactely, 14 Sqns LAEs won't go forward hence the maintenance is carried out at a safer location...

14 Sqn is a bit of an odd one and I sincerely hope our lords and masters and thinking of it as a model for the wider Air Force. Although many of the engineers on 14 Sqn are licensed they are still blue suits (until their ROS expires but that's a different problem) and they do some maintenance at forward locations when required. The main reason they do most of the maintenance elsewhere is down to logistics.

 

[Downsizer]

14 Sqn is a bit of an odd one and I sincerely hope our lords and masters and thinking of it as a model for the wider Air Force. Although many of the engineers on 14 Sqn are licensed they are still blue suits (until their ROS expires but that's a different problem) and they do some maintenance at forward locations when required. The main reason they do most of the maintenance elsewhere is down to logistics.

14 Sqns blue suits do forward maintenace, but all the in depth work is not carried out at forward locations because GAMA and the CAA won't allow it.

 

[clungemobile]

I thought this was about TG17 ....funny how it always goes sideways and people end up talking about engineers/techies.....licensing...eh how is that relating to FTRS and TG17?DT_Xtremez_06:

 

[True Blue Jack]

To be fair, the 'whole force concept' is much bigger than just TG17 and I think it's only because it was a theme at the recent branch conference that it's cropped up here now. Personally, I think a concept is all it will ever be unless we are able to solve the problem of recruiting and retaining reservists (full time and otherwise) in sufficient numbers.

 

[Joe_90]

In my trade the plans are further down the line and it is going to happen. I wouldn't rely on the fact that in the long run getting able and qualified people to do the job for the money will be very difficult.