Flight Ops and ATC NEED to split

[Deleted member 777]

I've been thinking about this for a while and while at work over Crimbo, I've done a bit of reading and trawling various message boards. All of this has come to the conclusion that the ATC-ers need to be taken out of TG9 and put in their own pay spine, ready for civilianisation. Flight Ops has a healthy future (especially in the impending SDR), but could well get dragged down by the dead weight that is Air Traffic Control and as such everyone will suffer and those that survive, will come out a poor second to those from TG12 when the merger happens. What do you think FOMs/FOA's?

 

[Muttley]

You might want to attend the Flt Ops symposium and raise the question.

 

[HotspurIDO]

With only a very limited knowledge of TG9 matters I bow to your judgement, but what you're saying seems to make sense to this scopey. Separate ATC much akin to how we do it with FC/ABM and merge the rest? Seems spot on, and would make the merger a lot smoother.

 

[Part Time PFOM]

The only problems I forsee is if we remove the SNCO Controllers from TG9 and come under the ‘Flt Ops’ branch as many have suggested. Who will look after our interests? As the Flt Ops branch still do not have enough ‘Big Guns’ in their arsenal especially at command level. (I do admit that they are becoming stronger)

As for the proposed merger with TG12, do you see us absorbing them or them absorbing us? Again, who will look after our interests?

I know that we always are at the mercy of someone else’s agenda (historically the controller streams) but the question is whose agenda you think would best serve us.DT_Xtremez_34:

I will now shut up and await the incomingDT_Xtremez_30:

 

[FOMz]

Fair points there mate.

I do agree that removal of the controlling bretheran and merging them with the FC's, with ourselves and ASM/ASOP merging is the way forward.

If/when the FOMs/FOAs and ASMs/ASPs merge, there is already an officer cadre in place (OpsOs) - they just need a bit of empowerment and some selected accelerated promotion to get some big guns in place.

It will be painful and a lot of noses (careers) will be put out of joint, but if Flight Ops is to survive - its the way forward.

 

[Donald Rumsfeld]

Fair points there mate.

I do agree that removal of the controlling bretheran and merging them with the FC's, with ourselves and ASM/ASOP merging is the way forward.

If/when the FOMs/FOAs and ASMs/ASPs merge, there is already an officer cadre in place (OpsOs) - they just need a bit of empowerment and some selected accelerated promotion to get some big guns in place.

It will be painful and a lot of noses (careers) will be put out of joint, but if Flight Ops is to survive - its the way forward.

Given that Flt Ops have now a very clearly defined role within an EAW ORBAT concept of the RAF (OH GET ME WITH ALL THE SENIOR OFFICER JARGON !), the future for us must be very good, even better when we have a defined Staff Officer structure at Air Command ie SO1/2/3, who willbe able to influnence policy etc. On the other hand given that airfields such as Wattisham have SERCO running the tower, why do we need all these military air traffic controllers around at these big airfields. Surely a more streamlined and dedicated cadre of ATC would be more cost effective and practical.
Snow bound at home, sod all else to do, so awaiting the incoming !

 

[R_Squared]

...... On the other hand given that airfields such as Wattisham have SERCO running the tower, why do we need all these military air traffic controllers around at these big airfields.....

Perhaps because the only things to fly out of Wattisham are AH47's?

The manning levels at Wattisham are in no way representative of ATC commitments at other airfields.

TBH, with so many civvie assistants about already, I can see the Ops side going more that way quicker than ATC. Especially as you can pay the civvies next to nothing and don't even have to accomodate them.

 

[FOMz]

Firstly, Rojaws, keep your beak out - if you read the thread its for FOMs and FOAs - of which you are neither .DT_Xtremez_14:

Secondly, considering that ATCs only deploy to 2 locations, where as the FOMs and FOAs are deploying to over 15 locations in various roles - I find your comments quite hard to quantify.

ATC is a prime target for contractorisation - face it. Flight Ops is not.

 

[R_Squared]

Fomz, I was clarifying a point that Donald Rumsfeld made as justification for contractorisation of the ATC branch.

My last comment was only a light hearted jibe, calm down, you'll rupture yourself. DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[Hmmmm]

We were having this conversation when I joined the RAF in 1982 and it was still going on when I left some 26 years later.

The problem as I see it still revolves around the officer cadre. Whether you try to talk it up or not, the flt ops officer job is something that any old average GD officer picked-up quite quickly. In my time I saw aircrew, ATC, FC, Int and even Regt officers fill these roles with relative ease. That's not me belittling the non-commissioned opsie role, I'm just saying that the need for an overarching officer specialisation is tenuous. So this leaves TG9/12 'opsies' in a slightly better position than firefighters in that they have far more uses than only fighting fires but there is little need for an overarching officer corps. Where the new TG sits is an academic exercise but I would offer that it should belong to an ABM type organisation.

Turning to the ATC bashing, again this one has been around the buoy quite a few times. At the end of the day it comes down to costs and civilian controllers, for whatever reason, are too expensive.

All that said, I haven't a clue what the inevitable massive spending cuts will bring in the next couple of years. I do know that it will be far uglier than any single event I saw in my quarter century where the RAF that reduced in strength by almost 70%. Personally, I would get rid of all this ATC/FC/Ops bullsh1t and concentrate on saving an air force.

 

[FOMz]

Unfortunately - everyone is batting for their own liitle area including the winged master race....

What is needed is an expensive consultancy to be brought in............ DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[R_Squared]

I'm sure you could rustle up a few like-minded Goaters would be willing to set up a suitable "Consultancy" for a reasonable fee, expenses included of course.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

I'm sure you could rustle up a few like-minded Goaters would be willing to set up a suitable "Consultancy" for a reasonable fee, expenses included of course.

I'm in, reasonable fees and staff work experience. I firstly propose a fact finding mission to see how the Ops/Scopie job is done in, perhaps Malaysia or Aus.

I can get a team of like minded people from my side of the house, anyone else in?

 

[R_Squared]

As long as there is some form of Executive tension release allowance, I could be interested.

 

[FOMz]

RoJaws- you are not an Ops Monkey..... keep yer beak out of our trough.

 

[insideinfoman]

Sorry been away from the fold getting used to life outside DT_Xtremez_28:

Anyway I'm in if you can afford my fees DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[FOMDude]

Had a good read of this thread from the beginning of the year and some of you good folk have shown frightening insight.

Our deployment responsibilities as we know all to well now are top of the list (warfighter first, trade specialist second). Add to that an impending SDSR and it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the cuts are going to come (Med downgrades). A military percentage will remain in a deployable role; other than that training at home will be the responsibility of our civilian or Reserve kin. That means that harmony times will be reduced (bad times) as long as we are still committed to Ops worldwide but the Government make huge savings (it's all about money after all).

Amalgamation is distinctly possible in this current fiscal climate and the evidence so far suggests it is a viable and workable option. How and when it will affect 9 & 12 is another puzzle for the coming months??

I have a sneaky suspicion that Flt Ops Officers are not as safe as some think. How useful are they really? Can a Duty Ops Officer role be carried out by the more experienced and well-blooded SNCO FOM? Sqn Cdr roles could be undertaken as a 'desk tour' by existing ATC/ABM Officers who already have a dedicated structure whilst Flt Cdr roles could be given to our hairy old WOs? Phew....there's enough to be getting on with! To all my FOOs friends and colleagues....I am just playing devil's advocate! Honest.....

Now I am off to continue working on my CV.

 

[FOMDude]

I forgot to add (and keeping with the thread title) that it is probably unavoidable (particluarly with amalgamation talk) that TG9 will detach from the ATC branch.

DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[FOMz]

I forgot to add (and keeping with the thread title) that it is probably unavoidable (particluarly with amalgamation talk) that TG9 will detach from the ATC branch.

DT_Xtremez_42:

Now that does sound good!!!!! DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[gordon bennett]

I'm hearing rumours of an announcement that TG9 and TG12 are to merge ... anybody got any more details ?