Engineering Officer (Fresh Out of Uni)

[Dingo_Ranger]

'Ello Ladies and Gents,
I've recently completed a degree in Aerospace Engineering and even managed to snatch myself a 1st class at that! (we all get lucky sometimes). I'm a tad older than my cohort at 24, (resits many moons ago), but obviously objectively young. Without going into the typical mushy "It's always been my dream" malarkey, like most lads I've pretty much always held an appreciation for the armed forces and have recently found the roles they can provide to be pretty appealing. I've had family serve, but none in the RAF, but besides the branch, I've always felt obliged to give a little back to the country, and the services may very well be the place to do it.

At a pragmatic level, since finding myself in the big bad world, I've had no headway with finding a job in industry, (shock horror at the moment eh), but I've also got friends with first class masters who have been jobless since July 2020. My point being that it may be a while before I could strike up some gainful employment. Queue Her Majesty's Armed Forces. I've been eyeing up enlisting as an Engineering Officer (AS) as way to earn myself some valuable training and experience whilst the world is on its knee's, but ultimately, I'd like to put some years in whilst I'm young and able.

Apologies for the long intro, just felt some background info was apt, and I don't have the ability to discuss any details at home / with friends, so I'm just kinda venting it here. I've spoken to two different AFCO staff, but I'd really appreciate some input from the fine individuals on this site who could chip in their unfiltered experiences and opinions, and possibly glean some insight into the role deeper than what's written on paper. Just a few questions (at the moment).

1. Do engineering officers get fully trained with the technical competency and knowledge required to fulfill their role, or is it generally expected for them to just have a very surface level operational knowledge and red or green pen papers based on the SNCO input? I'm fully aware that EngO isn't a hands on affair, but I would feelabsolutely obliged to know every detail possible to best of my ability. I know that technician input is pretty much absolute as it is after all their job (likely of many years) and not mine, but I would like to know if I would have the opportunity to learn to a level similar of their operational knowledge.

2. What's the accommodation like during Phase 1/ IOT / Post? This is a purely personal question really, I snore (damn loud from what I'm told) and I'm sure it wouldn't make me the most popular individual on site. So at what point is it possible to get individual accommodation?

3. What's the career progression like? I've read/discussed with an AFCO that the first step really is Flight Lt at 2.5 years served after IOT training. I'm sure after this rank, that things are competitive and based on competency (which is always good), but could someone who's in the know please expand on what kind of progression one could see after Flight Lt.

4. The most egregious question of the lot. What's the Civvy Street employability of an EngO once life in the service is all said and done? From what I've read, you'd be looking at operational management roles (Engineering 'evolves' to this after 5 years or so anyways). I'm just wondering if anyone here has experience as an Officer finding employment after leaving, and can talk through what transferrable skills they have. I by no means expect to try and wiggle out of service after putting in my 'return of service' or whatever it's called, I'm just trying to be pragmatic about the very realistic inevitability of post-service employment.

To those who have made it this far, cheers for reading that wall of text. I'll be lurking about to read and reply to any comments you fine people make. Thanks a lot for your time and energy.

 

[Webbo]

*Engineer Officer

 

[vim_fuego]

I'm not and never was an EngO but I worked and still do work alongside them to this day so I'll have a go at a few of these:

1. Do engineering officers get fully trained with the technical competency and knowledge required to fulfill their role, or is it generally expected for them to just have a very surface level operational knowledge and red or green pen papers based on the SNCO input? I'm fully aware that EngO isn't a hands on affair, but I would feel absolutely obliged to know every detail possible to best of my ability. I know that technician input is pretty much absolute as it is after all their job (likely of many years) and not mine, but I would like to know if I would have the opportunity to learn to a level similar of their operational knowledge. From what I have seen the most you get your hands dirty is during your BENGo training when you run a pretend line and react to various scenarios. Once you have finished you will do a number of short tours to get you around the different bizarres of aircraft or ground work. You will see what suits you and potentially could get to choose what path you travel...or they will just post you where they need you. Most tradesman don't really want you hanging on their shoulder asking bone questions, especially when busy and to be fair...You'll have a mountain of paperwork (technical and admin) and disciplinary sh1te to be getting on with. On occassion and if you establish good working relationships with your team they might appreciate a hand operating a winch or something.

2. What's the accommodation like during Phase 1/ IOT / Post? This is a purely personal question really, I snore (damn loud from what I'm told) and I'm sure it wouldn't make me the most popular individual on site. So at what point is it possible to get individual accommodation? Unless its changed in the past few years you start off in one mess at Cranwell and as you progress you move to other better messes. Most there are steeped in history which is another way of saying they are old, cold and dusty as feck. As a snorer you will be hated in the early days when you share rooms with a few others...eventually you will get your own room but if you're a prolific snorer those walls and pretty flimsy in terms of noise suppression.

3. What's the career progression like? I've read/discussed with an AFCO that the first step really is Flight Lt at 2.5 years served after IOT training. I'm sure after this rank, that things are competitive and based on competency (which is always good), but could someone who's in the know please expand on what kind of progression one could see after Flight Lt. If you have a degree then you might well start off at Flt Lt straight after IOT. They used to work closely with their Desk Officer to manage their career. Do all the early short tours (around 18 months) without killing anybody and moaning and your desky will advise you what is going to progress your career more quickly. This will doubtless entail a few OOAs but if you want Sqn Ldr in quick time go along with what they advise. If you have a family and they start to kick-back at your antics and tours this is when the career path becomes a decision point for many...life as a singly in the mess but the rank you want or a family and probably at best, after a good while being a SL but no further.

4. The most egregious question of the lot. What's the Civvy Street employability of an EngO once life in the service is all said and done? From what I've read, you'd be looking at operational management roles (Engineering 'evolves' to this after 5 years or so anyways). I'm just wondering if anyone here has experience as an Officer finding employment after leaving, and can talk through what transferrable skills they have. I by no means expect to try and wiggle out of service after putting in my 'return of service' or whatever it's called, I'm just trying to be pragmatic about the very realistic inevitability of post-service employment. Your prospects will be good if you have played the right game when you are in. Often following the script for rapid advancement does not translate into high employability whereas bagging every course, qualification and chartership you can for free (or part funded), which may not marry with what your Desky wants, will set you up for a far higher paid role in more interesting and explorative fields than you'll see in the mob...I'm ex-Aircrew with an engineering background. I work for a high end consultancy alongside a number of ex-EngOs who are now earning far more than when in and doing very well from it.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dingo_Ranger]

*Engineer Officer

Engineer Officer it is, shows how much I know!


Thanks a lot for the in depth answers Vim, you've gave me a good insight, it's much appreciated!

I'm happy to know I may have the ability to lend a hand. I had the opportunity to do a year in industry as a test engineer, designing rigs and testing (obv), and it gave me some really good insight to working alongside technicians as I had to manage labour etc across jobs. I certainly learned that throwing some overalls on and donning a spanner was often appreciated when things got down to the wire.

I'll survive the banter I'm sure, I'd wager that any shit I get would be less a punishment than what the rest of the mess would suffer at my proverbial hands. Though I have seen some worrying film scenes involving soap bars stuffed into socks in the middle of the night...

Flt Lt off the bat would be ace, but I'm obviously sticking to the 2.5 years model until someone gives me the good news! Not boxing someone off for 18 months is a tall order, but I'll try my damnedest to make sure everyone around me gets through with all limbs intact. Sqn Ldr sounds pretty cool (not as cool as Major though imo) to my young and naïve self, but I'm sure that's a metric sh*t tonne of responsibility there...

That's really good to hear. I'm looking to get the most out the service as I can (if they let me in!). I'll obv be aiming at chartership, but any courses/quals I could pick up along the way would be worth their weight in gold down the line. Who knows, maybe a second part time degree (or masters) is on the books if I can swindle a sponsorship. I'm happy to hear that you transitioned to civvy life pretty well, along with all those ex-EngOs, I've gleaned that the grass isn't always so green on the other side like so many say it is...

Thanks again for your response, you've gave me some really good information there.

I applied yesterday to the role, here's to hoping the process will be a breeze

 

[Stevienics]

"If you have a degree then you might well start off at Flt Lt straight after IOT. They used to work closely with their Desk Officer to manage their career"

Still takes about 2 years provided you are not a complete gimp

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

Engineer Officer it is, shows how much I know!


Thanks a lot for the in depth answers Vim, you've gave me a good insight, it's much appreciated!

I'm happy to know I may have the ability to lend a hand. I had the opportunity to do a year in industry as a test engineer, designing rigs and testing (obv), and it gave me some really good insight to working alongside technicians as I had to manage labour etc across jobs. I certainly learned that throwing some overalls on and donning a spanner was often appreciated when things got down to the wire.

I'll survive the banter I'm sure, I'd wager that any shit I get would be less a punishment than what the rest of the mess would suffer at my proverbial hands. Though I have seen some worrying film scenes involving soap bars stuffed into socks in the middle of the night...

Flt Lt off the bat would be ace, but I'm obviously sticking to the 2.5 years model until someone gives me the good news! Not boxing someone off for 18 months is a tall order, but I'll try my damnedest to make sure everyone around me gets through with all limbs intact. Sqn Ldr sounds pretty cool (not as cool as Major though imo) to my young and naïve self, but I'm sure that's a metric sh*t tonne of responsibility there...

That's really good to hear. I'm looking to get the most out the service as I can (if they let me in!). I'll obv be aiming at chartership, but any courses/quals I could pick up along the way would be worth their weight in gold down the line. Who knows, maybe a second part time degree (or masters) is on the books if I can swindle a sponsorship. I'm happy to hear that you transitioned to civvy life pretty well, along with all those ex-EngOs, I've gleaned that the grass isn't always so green on the other side like so many say it is...

Thanks again for your response, you've gave me some really good information there.

I applied yesterday to the role, here's to hoping the process will be a breeze

Good luck with your application and hope you can jump through the hoops. Forget the Full Metal Jacket crap. The IOT DI's will push you to make sure you are wheat and not chaff. You maybe more intelligent than them, but it is their train set , not yours. The BEngO course will push you as well. It is deep end, especially if you have no aviation engineeering practical experince. You will find out that the outside is the generation of assets. With what you have got. Managaement of assets. That is your people. That is the word. Your machines are objects that do nothing with people. Your job is management of people to get the machine to do the task. Some are better that others at doing it and it is your management to get the best of all of them. Listen to all. Take the wheat and discard the chaff. There are the mavericks and the loud mouths that you will work out. Your wobblies will usually be good blokes, but they are human. Some are better than others, most will be on your side. They are on the same side.

 

[Cornish_Pikey]

I had it told to me that Engineer Officer can be a bit of an oddly lonely place too.

Aircrew don't understand you. You're an officer that doesn't fly.
Groundcrew don't understand you. You're an engineer that's also an officer, ergo does little engineering.

You are very much a liaison between everyone.

 

[Dingo_Ranger]

Good luck with your application and hope you can jump through the hoops. Forget the Full Metal Jacket crap. The IOT DI's will push you to make sure you are wheat and not chaff. You maybe more intelligent than them, but it is their train set , not yours. The BEngO course will push you as well. It is deep end, especially if you have no aviation engineeering practical experince. You will find out that the outside is the generation of assets. With what you have got. Managaement of assets. That is your people. That is the word. Your machines are objects that do nothing with people. Your job is management of people to get the machine to do the task. Some are better that others at doing it and it is your management to get the best of all of them. Listen to all. Take the wheat and discard the chaff. There are the mavericks and the loud mouths that you will work out. Your wobblies will usually be good blokes, but they are human. Some are better than others, most will be on your side. They are on the same side.

Thanks for kind thoughts, Lieutenant Dunbar.

I'm currently awaiting a date for my P2 presentation at the moment. I'm hoping that I can get it and my filter interview done by the end of March. AFCO says that Aero-systems is a priority role for them currently, so hopefully that does me some good in expediting the process!

IOT would be a gauntlet for sure, but one that should be welcomed. Unfortunately, I have zero practical experience with aircraft, which I'm sure will do me no favours. I hope my year as a test engineer, performing validation and stress tests can give me a shoe in experience wise. I'd like to think at the core of any management job, that the people are at the center. As you said, the people are the what make the RAF's world turn, and they're some of the best there are. I have no doubts that any personnel I could work with at a first (or any) posting would be quality people, at the end of the day, it's as you've said, everyone is on the same side.

My only worry would be growing into the commission, so to speak. It grants institutional hierarchy to NCO's and SNCO's on paper, but as anyone with sense should know, the tenured personnel with those ranks are skilled, dedicated and loyal professionals, with many years in service, which warrants a certain degree of respect. I struggle to see at what point I would personally become confident in projecting any sort of authority in my role, technically speaking, let alone rank wise to any SNCO. I detest the thought that anyone would enter the armed forces as an officer just to pull 'rank' or passively regard non-commissioned personnel as anything but fellow and equal (if not superior for quite a time) brothers (and ladies) in arms.

Apologies for the mini-piece of my philosophy, just venting my thoughts.
I feel like I'm getting way ahead of myself even talking about service life at the moment. I've still got a long way to go with my application. I really hope I can sell myself well enough to pass OASC and get offered my first (AS) or second (CE) choice. If not, I guess it's a 12 month wait, plenty of time to apply myself in addressing whatever shortcomings they would have identified I had.

I had it told to me that Engineer Officer can be a bit of an oddly lonely place too.

Aircrew don't understand you. You're an officer that doesn't fly.
Groundcrew don't understand you. You're an engineer that's also an officer, ergo does little engineering.

You are very much a liaison between everyone.

We all like some peace and quiet sometimes, eh.

Your statement made me think, that a good portion of the officers in the RAF are indeed aircrew

I can imagine that the role seems redundant to some, as it appears to do little from the outset (only echoing some sentiment that I've found around some forums about officers in general). But if that's the impression because everything is plodding along nicely, then it means that the EngO is getting the job done, identifying, addressing and resolving issues before they hit the shop floor.

I came to realise that a liaison role is much more difficult, in-depth and nuanced than I had gave it credit for over the years. Especially in the armed forces. In terms of information delivery, it can cause unnecessary friction if done wrong, a massive holdup and wasted hours if not done at all, and a lot of animosity and gossip if done inappropriately such as sharing your thoughts/conversations with higher ups including their official/unofficial stance on matters.

Ultimately, I'm a firm believer that teamwork makes the dreamwork, and I am hopeful that OASC deems that I am made of the right stuff to be a member of the RAF team.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

I had it told to me that Engineer Officer can be a bit of an oddly lonely place too.

Aircrew don't understand you. You're an officer that doesn't fly.
Groundcrew don't understand you. You're an engineer that's also an officer, ergo does little engineering.

You are very much a liaison between everyone.

A engineering manager. Some are better than others.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

Thanks for kind thoughts, Lieutenant Dunbar.

I'm currently awaiting a date for my P2 presentation at the moment. I'm hoping that I can get it and my filter interview done by the end of March. AFCO says that Aero-systems is a priority role for them currently, so hopefully that does me some good in expediting the process!

IOT would be a gauntlet for sure, but one that should be welcomed. Unfortunately, I have zero practical experience with aircraft, which I'm sure will do me no favours. I hope my year as a test engineer, performing validation and stress tests can give me a shoe in experience wise. I'd like to think at the core of any management job, that the people are at the center. As you said, the people are the what make the RAF's world turn, and they're some of the best there are. I have no doubts that any personnel I could work with at a first (or any) posting would be quality people, at the end of the day, it's as you've said, everyone is on the same side.

My only worry would be growing into the commission, so to speak. It grants institutional hierarchy to NCO's and SNCO's on paper, but as anyone with sense should know, the tenured personnel with those ranks are skilled, dedicated and loyal professionals, with many years in service, which warrants a certain degree of respect. I struggle to see at what point I would personally become confident in projecting any sort of authority in my role, technically speaking, let alone rank wise to any SNCO. I detest the thought that anyone would enter the armed forces as an officer just to pull 'rank' or passively regard non-commissioned personnel as anything but fellow and equal (if not superior for quite a time) brothers (and ladies) in arms.

Apologies for the mini-piece of my philosophy, just venting my thoughts.
I feel like I'm getting way ahead of myself even talking about service life at the moment. I've still got a long way to go with my application. I really hope I can sell myself well enough to pass OASC and get offered my first (AS) or second (CE) choice. If not, I guess it's a 12 month wait, plenty of time to apply myself in addressing whatever shortcomings they would have identified I had.



We all like some peace and quiet sometimes, eh.

Your statement made me think, that a good portion of the officers in the RAF are indeed aircrew

I can imagine that the role seems redundant to some, as it appears to do little from the outset (only echoing some sentiment that I've found around some forums about officers in general). But if that's the impression because everything is plodding along nicely, then it means that the EngO is getting the job done, identifying, addressing and resolving issues before they hit the shop floor.

I came to realise that a liaison role is much more difficult, in-depth and nuanced than I had gave it credit for over the years. Especially in the armed forces. In terms of information delivery, it can cause unnecessary friction if done wrong, a massive holdup and wasted hours if not done at all, and a lot of animosity and gossip if done inappropriately such as sharing your thoughts/conversations with higher ups including their official/unofficial stance on matters.

Ultimately, I'm a firm believer that teamwork makes the dreamwork, and I am hopeful that OASC deems that I am made of the right stuff to be a member of the RAF team.

I hope the best for you. However experince in aircraft can be free. The EngO course does not generate this. Plays with the same kit.

 

[Stevienics]

Thanks for kind thoughts, Lieutenant Dunbar.

I'm currently awaiting a date for my P2 presentation at the moment. I'm hoping that I can get it and my filter interview done by the end of March. AFCO says that Aero-systems is a priority role for them currently, so hopefully that does me some good in expediting the process!

IOT would be a gauntlet for sure, but one that should be welcomed. Unfortunately, I have zero practical experience with aircraft, which I'm sure will do me no favours. I hope my year as a test engineer, performing validation and stress tests can give me a shoe in experience wise. I'd like to think at the core of any management job, that the people are at the center. As you said, the people are the what make the RAF's world turn, and they're some of the best there are. I have no doubts that any personnel I could work with at a first (or any) posting would be quality people, at the end of the day, it's as you've said, everyone is on the same side.

My only worry would be growing into the commission, so to speak. It grants institutional hierarchy to NCO's and SNCO's on paper, but as anyone with sense should know, the tenured personnel with those ranks are skilled, dedicated and loyal professionals, with many years in service, which warrants a certain degree of respect. I struggle to see at what point I would personally become confident in projecting any sort of authority in my role, technically speaking, let alone rank wise to any SNCO. I detest the thought that anyone would enter the armed forces as an officer just to pull 'rank' or passively regard non-commissioned personnel as anything but fellow and equal (if not superior for quite a time) brothers (and ladies) in arms.

Apologies for the mini-piece of my philosophy, just venting my thoughts.
I feel like I'm getting way ahead of myself even talking about service life at the moment. I've still got a long way to go with my application. I really hope I can sell myself well enough to pass OASC and get offered my first (AS) or second (CE) choice. If not, I guess it's a 12 month wait, plenty of time to apply myself in addressing whatever shortcomings they would have identified I had.



We all like some peace and quiet sometimes, eh.

Your statement made me think, that a good portion of the officers in the RAF are indeed aircrew

I can imagine that the role seems redundant to some, as it appears to do little from the outset (only echoing some sentiment that I've found around some forums about officers in general). But if that's the impression because everything is plodding along nicely, then it means that the EngO is getting the job done, identifying, addressing and resolving issues before they hit the shop floor.

I came to realise that a liaison role is much more difficult, in-depth and nuanced than I had gave it credit for over the years. Especially in the armed forces. In terms of information delivery, it can cause unnecessary friction if done wrong, a massive holdup and wasted hours if not done at all, and a lot of animosity and gossip if done inappropriately such as sharing your thoughts/conversations with higher ups including their official/unofficial stance on matters.

Ultimately, I'm a firm believer that teamwork makes the dreamwork, and I am hopeful that OASC deems that I am made of the right stuff to be a member of the RAF team.

It's OK. Dress and deport yourself mentally for the job you'd like to do and it will ease your way if you lean into them rather than insisting that you're dealing from a point of ignorance - that's really appreciated.

Don't worry about aircraft engineering and the skill levels required. Most people on here spent years in training and work in, on or around aircraft and they still don't have al the answers, especially in new technology 5th generation beasts. If you are open to learn and keen to look forwards, it's a winning combo.

Last hint; Don't just learn about what we do now, learn about what we want to do based upon how we ballsed it up before, and form an opinion about how YOU would do it differently. That's what people want to hear.

 

[vim_fuego]

The following quote was on the wall in 8 sqn when I was last in the crewroom and I think it might have been Lord Kitchener who said it...It always caught my eye and I still believe it to be wise and worth following:

"No Officer will take a pipe or eat until his men have done so first"

Bring that sentiment forwards to today and apply it and you won't go far wrong.

 

[Cornish_Pikey]

Thanks for kind thoughts, Lieutenant Dunbar.

I'm currently awaiting a date for my P2 presentation at the moment. I'm hoping that I can get it and my filter interview done by the end of March. AFCO says that Aero-systems is a priority role for them currently, so hopefully that does me some good in expediting the process!

IOT would be a gauntlet for sure, but one that should be welcomed. Unfortunately, I have zero practical experience with aircraft, which I'm sure will do me no favours. I hope my year as a test engineer, performing validation and stress tests can give me a shoe in experience wise. I'd like to think at the core of any management job, that the people are at the center. As you said, the people are the what make the RAF's world turn, and they're some of the best there are. I have no doubts that any personnel I could work with at a first (or any) posting would be quality people, at the end of the day, it's as you've said, everyone is on the same side.

My only worry would be growing into the commission, so to speak. It grants institutional hierarchy to NCO's and SNCO's on paper, but as anyone with sense should know, the tenured personnel with those ranks are skilled, dedicated and loyal professionals, with many years in service, which warrants a certain degree of respect. I struggle to see at what point I would personally become confident in projecting any sort of authority in my role, technically speaking, let alone rank wise to any SNCO. I detest the thought that anyone would enter the armed forces as an officer just to pull 'rank' or passively regard non-commissioned personnel as anything but fellow and equal (if not superior for quite a time) brothers (and ladies) in arms.

Apologies for the mini-piece of my philosophy, just venting my thoughts.
I feel like I'm getting way ahead of myself even talking about service life at the moment. I've still got a long way to go with my application. I really hope I can sell myself well enough to pass OASC and get offered my first (AS) or second (CE) choice. If not, I guess it's a 12 month wait, plenty of time to apply myself in addressing whatever shortcomings they would have identified I had.



We all like some peace and quiet sometimes, eh.

Your statement made me think, that a good portion of the officers in the RAF are indeed aircrew

I can imagine that the role seems redundant to some, as it appears to do little from the outset (only echoing some sentiment that I've found around some forums about officers in general). But if that's the impression because everything is plodding along nicely, then it means that the EngO is getting the job done, identifying, addressing and resolving issues before they hit the shop floor.

I came to realise that a liaison role is much more difficult, in-depth and nuanced than I had gave it credit for over the years. Especially in the armed forces. In terms of information delivery, it can cause unnecessary friction if done wrong, a massive holdup and wasted hours if not done at all, and a lot of animosity and gossip if done inappropriately such as sharing your thoughts/conversations with higher ups including their official/unofficial stance on matters.

Ultimately, I'm a firm believer that teamwork makes the dreamwork, and I am hopeful that OASC deems that I am made of the right stuff to be a member of the RAF team.

First red quote, is one that unfortunately they will try to beat out of you during training. However if you realise that even some of the SACs can have ten happy years experience on type before you turn up. Use that experience wisely it makes life much easier for everyone. (They are also sometimes wrong though.)

Second red quote. make yourself a proverbial shit umbrella, protecting the troops from the red tape and bullshit coming from upon high then you'll be much respected. Although as an ENGO it's often your job to create such nonsense.


One of my my favourite quotes from a very bullish WO who looked after his troops was.
"No matter how bad it is, if I hear about it from you first then we can look after you. If I hear about something you've done from someone else before I hear it from you then I can't protect you. Surprises are far harder to deal with."

 

[Oldstacker]

Some more thoughts from me... make of them what you will but they are based on a uniformed career of over 23 years and another 20+ as a civil servant in MOD.

As an officer you are required to be a leader - that means your troops should follow you willingly not have to be driven. I've known many NCOs & officers in my time - some i wouldn't have followed into a pub even if they promised to get the first round in whereas others could have led me anywhere , even into the unknown. That doesn't mean the good ones had to be my friend or even, necessarily, likeable, but i did have to trust their judgement and their ability.
Being everyone's friend could easily bring you into conflict with your more hidebound and career-minded superiors; the balance between looking after the troops and looking after one's own career aspirations can be a tough call at times.
Troops will respect you if you are fair and honest - know who are the grafters and the slackers and treat them accordingly. If you don't know something or aren't at liberty to reveal something then say so; don't pretend either way. Ensure the troops are told what they can be as soon as they can be - they have lives to live and so do their families.
If your troops have to trust you, so must you trust them - learn who has good experience and draw on that but credit it accordingly. If 2 good NCOs offer conflicting advice then respect them both but use your own judgement; it is almost certainly going to be a tough decision if there are competing views but it it will be YOUR decision and YOUR head on the block.

 

[Stevienics]

"... whereas others could have led me anywhere , even into the unknown."

Morbid curiosity, having nothing better to do and boredom all play a large part in this, in many circumstances...

 

[Dingo_Ranger]

Apologies for the Houdini act, gents. Find myself getting sidetracked a fair bit nowadays...

Just writing this here, so all can see (without reading a wall of text).

I really appreciate all the information you guys have been sending my way. You've pointed out things I hadn't even considered, and made me set goals for myself that I can stride for. I'd just like you to know that you're doing a great service with this forum for people like me who have tonnes of questions but not many places to turn to to ask them. You've been very accommodating and helpful, it's a wonderful community you have here. I hope this thread becomes one that people will come across in the future and that details Dingo_Ranger's long (but successful!) ride to becoming an EngO. Thank you!

It's OK. Dress and deport yourself mentally for the job you'd like to do and it will ease your way if you lean into them rather than insisting that you're dealing from a point of ignorance - that's really appreciated.

Don't worry about aircraft engineering and the skill levels required. Most people on here spent years in training and work in, on or around aircraft and they still don't have al the answers, especially in new technology 5th generation beasts. If you are open to learn and keen to look forwards, it's a winning combo.

Last hint; Don't just learn about what we do now, learn about what we want to do based upon how we ballsed it up before, and form an opinion about how YOU would do it differently. That's what people want to hear.

Thanks for the assurance and tips, Stevie, I really appreciate it.

I think your first two statements exemplify a characteristic that I'm hopeful will come across during the filter interview (and possibly OASC) - the eagerness to learn. As silly as it sounds, I wish I could start tomorrow and just immerse myself in IOT and Specialist Training. Since leaving education, I've done nothing but want to cut my teeth on learning again, but with practical functions and work in mind. I love that the RAF will give me a crack at applying (they really do give any one of us sods the chance!), but my application has reminded me how impatient I can be... Dreading the weekend just because I have to wait two days to call the AFCO

That hint of yours has certainly hit the mark. I feel like an idiot for not even have thought about it up until now in whatever interview responses I've been making up in my head. I've thought about the RAF history of course, Black Buck, Battle of Britain and all the obvious ones, but never thought to relate responses about policies and current affairs to prior history.

The following quote was on the wall in 8 sqn when I was last in the crewroom and I think it might have been Lord Kitchener who said it...It always caught my eye and I still believe it to be wise and worth following:

"No Officer will take a pipe or eat until his men have done so first"

Bring that sentiment forwards to today and apply it and you won't go far wrong.

A great quote, (possibly) made by an even greater figure still.

I go forward hoping to be afforded the opportunity and priveledge to put those words and sentiment into action. The duties of an officer aren't complete until they lead the personnel to the bar at the end of the day, however long that day may be.

First red quote, is one that unfortunately they will try to beat out of you during training. However if you realise that even some of the SACs can have ten happy years experience on type before you turn up. Use that experience wisely it makes life much easier for everyone. (They are also sometimes wrong though.)

Second red quote. make yourself a proverbial shit umbrella, protecting the troops from the red tape and bullshit coming from upon high then you'll be much respected. Although as an ENGO it's often your job to create such nonsense.


One of my my favourite quotes from a very bullish WO who looked after his troops was.
"No matter how bad it is, if I hear about it from you first then we can look after you. If I hear about something you've done from someone else before I hear it from you then I can't protect you. Surprises are far harder to deal with."

They may well be spending a considerable amount of time beating a dead horse then! That sentiment is one I have fortunately had the opportunity to experience during my year long placement in industry. I'll be completely honest, I went into my placement with a considerable amount of ignorance. I had experienced work before, here and there, but this would be the first time I would find myself in a professional setting with designated job roles i.e Engineers, Technicians (fitters), welders and machine shop personnel. I got a shock for sure when I entered into the machine shop on my first job and asked for a piece of metal to be machined to be asked the obvious question "When do you want this for?" and being my ignorant self at the the time, I just thought the was a silly question and said "today?". I was chuckled at and told in polite words to do one. The workshop guys were actually very nice blokes (hard working too, pass retirement age!), but they were overworked and I should have taken to opportunity to meet and greet them long before I was required to so for a job. I mostly had a huge respect for the technicians however, as they did some hard work. Many had worked there for decades, younger lads had gotten degrees through work schemes and they were competent in every way an engineer was expected to be. The only dividing line was the roles they didn't perform, thus had no experience in, such as test equipment operation and report writing.

I know it's a life story that wasn't asked for, but I gained a great insight into working with other roles and departments, and learned how the flow of work depended directly on me and my correspondence with technicians and the fab shop. The engineers (and officers in association) may have had different roles, and a wider array of them, but it's not a one stop shop to any form of superiority over other stations. A master of his craft, whatever it may be, deserves respect becoming of their commitment and dedication.

That's the hope. I've seen one of my managers brave the shitstorm that is upper management, and I can confirm he was well respected for it. As well as losing a bit of that respect for implementing some of that none sense you mentioned. Ultimately, I hope I can become respected enough to become a first port of call for any troubled souls to go to when stuck between a rock and hard place.

 

[Dingo_Ranger]

So many words I had to split the replies

Some more thoughts from me... make of them what you will but they are based on a uniformed career of over 23 years and another 20+ as a civil servant in MOD.

As an officer you are required to be a leader - that means your troops should follow you willingly not have to be driven. I've known many NCOs & officers in my time - some i wouldn't have followed into a pub even if they promised to get the first round in whereas others could have led me anywhere , even into the unknown. That doesn't mean the good ones had to be my friend or even, necessarily, likeable, but i did have to trust their judgement and their ability.
Being everyone's friend could easily bring you into conflict with your more hidebound and career-minded superiors; the balance between looking after the troops and looking after one's own career aspirations can be a tough call at times.
Troops will respect you if you are fair and honest - know who are the grafters and the slackers and treat them accordingly. If you don't know something or aren't at liberty to reveal something then say so; don't pretend either way. Ensure the troops are told what they can be as soon as they can be - they have lives to live and so do their families.
If your troops have to trust you, so must you trust them - learn who has good experience and draw on that but credit it accordingly. If 2 good NCOs offer conflicting advice then respect them both but use your own judgement; it is almost certainly going to be a tough decision if there are competing views but it it will be YOUR decision and YOUR head on the block.

Those are two solid careers you've had there, I hope they were as fulfilling for you as my young and naive mind hopes they may be for me one day!

I certainly aspire to be a figure that can be trusted, and thus worthy of being followed.
On a side-note, I will be taking that pub analogy as a future reverence!

I can't attest to knowing anything about the upper management in the RAF and their attitudes, I'm sure it's something you have to live first hand to get a grip of. That being said, I would like to think they embody the same principles that we're discussing here, though that may be wishful thinking on my part. I can't imagine what a decision between career and personnel looks like, but I hope it's a crossroad I'll never find myself at.

To be fair in life should be considered a low bar to set oneself. As daft as the question may sound, what recourse would be in an EngO's remit to deal with the grafters and slackers? I fully appreciate giving someone compliments for a job well done and making that known to others, but my imagination lacks to ability to see what I could do to punish those who proverbially drag their feet. I'd like to think I'm a fair guy, but as has been stated in this thread, some unsavory characters should be 'deal with appropriately', just wondering with what that entails (professionally speaking).

Relaying information and correspondence was definitely something I was lucky to get some experience with. Technicians could do nothing but sit on their hands waiting for info from me, and couldn't be drawn onto other jobs because they were designated to me etc etc. Due to the nature of the armed forces, incompetent management may mask those who make mistakes and pass the consequences onto the troops, such as prolonged working hours (the joys of salaried pay). Though to exemplify the qualities we've discussed and be a leader, it's important to get the men and women where they want to be at the end of the day. A quick addendum - it's also important to consider that people may have bad days and personal burdens, and though their work should be up to scratch, it's important to give consideration to their actions on a day. (Or maybe I'm a bit soft eh).

I'm hoping that if I'm ever put in the position of making a judgement call like that, that it's never related to flight worthiness...

Thanks for all the insight, Oldstacker. You've helped to put some things into perspective for me.

 

[Ell887]

So many words I had to split the replies



Those are two solid careers you've had there, I hope they were as fulfilling for you as my young and naive mind hopes they may be for me one day!

I certainly aspire to be a figure that can be trusted, and thus worthy of being followed.
On a side-note, I will be taking that pub analogy as a future reverence!

I can't attest to knowing anything about the upper management in the RAF and their attitudes, I'm sure it's something you have to live first hand to get a grip of. That being said, I would like to think they embody the same principles that we're discussing here, though that may be wishful thinking on my part. I can't imagine what a decision between career and personnel looks like, but I hope it's a crossroad I'll never find myself at.

To be fair in life should be considered a low bar to set oneself. As daft as the question may sound, what recourse would be in an EngO's remit to deal with the grafters and slackers? I fully appreciate giving someone compliments for a job well done and making that known to others, but my imagination lacks to ability to see what I could do to punish those who proverbially drag their feet. I'd like to think I'm a fair guy, but as has been stated in this thread, some unsavory characters should be 'deal with appropriately', just wondering with what that entails (professionally speaking).

Relaying information and correspondence was definitely something I was lucky to get some experience with. Technicians could do nothing but sit on their hands waiting for info from me, and couldn't be drawn onto other jobs because they were designated to me etc etc. Due to the nature of the armed forces, incompetent management may mask those who make mistakes and pass the consequences onto the troops, such as prolonged working hours (the joys of salaried pay). Though to exemplify the qualities we've discussed and be a leader, it's important to get the men and women where they want to be at the end of the day. A quick addendum - it's also important to consider that people may have bad days and personal burdens, and though their work should be up to scratch, it's important to give consideration to their actions on a day. (Or maybe I'm a bit soft eh).

I'm hoping that if I'm ever put in the position of making a judgement call like that, that it's never related to flight worthiness...

Thanks for all the insight, Oldstacker. You've helped to put some things into perspective for me.

Hi Dingo, I’m going to attempt to answer a few of your points. However I’m using my phone and it’s struggle to read/post simultaneously; but here goes.

Slackers - Generally speaking, it would usually be JNCO/SNCOs who deal with this in the first instance. It’s their job and is often sorted at that level. As an EngO you may have the odd bit of paperwork cross your desk for this which comes down to Administrative Action. You’ll essential review the case and dish out the punishment (it doesn’t often get to this point).

Accountability - Mistake happen and again, JNCO/SNCOs are in place to manage the workers. They ‘should’ pick up on an individual acting out of character, from personal issues etc. This doesn’t always happen and mistakes do occur. However, this is called Human Factors (we do training on this). The supervisor (generally a Cpl) should be ensuring all work completed is to the correct standard and sign it off to say as much. There is much less ‘blame culture’ present and more effort to find out how/why errors have happened and how to mitigate them in the future. However if this impacted Air Safety then there would be a full MAA review. In 12 years I’ve not experienced an instance that has jeopardised Air Safety *touch wood*.

Your job is to make sure your SNCOs are ensuring all personnel are qualified and experienced enough to work on equipment, and provide the correct levels of supervision. It relies on trust (upwards and downwards) that everyone is fulfilling their roles.

Don’t worry about things like that, it’s part of the job and the risk is relatively low.

 

[mild mannered janitor]

I certainly learned that throwing some overalls on and donning a spanner was often appreciated when things got down to the wire.

i can say with a degree of certinty that this would not be the case, the last thing i would have wanted was a wet behind the ears JENGO with nil type experiance trying to get involved.

 

[Barch]

Back in the early days of the Tornado on the Senior Bomber squadron our SENGO (a very good bloke by the way) had all the BENGOS out in the HASs working with the linies until they were competent at flight servicing ,after that they had short spells with the trade desks.

Simple but effective.