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Cautioned....

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Tigger

Guest
Most of Stamford is Lincs, so it wasn't me. Although I do hope one day to come across someone from MT being bad !

With regard to the so called evidence, if you didn't do it, you didn't do it. Identification issues are a nightmare a lead to a lot of cases getting binned.
In a criminal prosecution the crown/military have to prove beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT you committed the offence. Civil courts are different and only need the balance of probability to win.
 
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PSF Angel

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wgaf said:
PSF Angel you CAN be CHARGED with bringing the RAF into disrepute, this usually arises from court appearances,but is not restricted to them, you can then be formally warned as the PUNISHMENT for bringing the RAF into disrepute.
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This sounds like a discussion I had a while back about 'tech charges' which also no longer exist. You can't get charged for bringing the RAF into disrepute. There is no such charge. The only thing it could possibly come under is a section 69 of the Air Force Act which is conduct to the predjudice of good order and air force discipline. If you tell me what section the 'bringing the Air Force into disrepute' comes under in the manual of air force law I will gladly retract my statement. It is however, usually written in Formal Warnings which is classed as ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION. If you get a Formal Warning without getting charged for a civil or military offence your conduct ON YOUR appraisal remains exemplary (unless a commissioned reporting officer decides to lower it by one, which he then has to justify).
 
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wgaf

Guest
PSF Angel said:
You don't get charged for bringing the RAF into disrepute. There is no such charge. The only thing it could possibly come under is a section 69 of the Air Force Act which is conduct to the predjudice of good order and air force discipline. If you tell me what section the 'bringing the Air Force into disrepute' comes under in the manual of air force law I will gladly retract my statement. It is however, usually written in Formal Warnings which is classed as administrative action. If you get a Formal Warning without getting charged for a civil or military offence your conduct remains exemplary (unless an officer decides to lower it by one, which he then has to justify).
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When you're next in work I suggest you check out form F281, Report of summary/minor punishment-airmen, there is a box to be filled out titled 'section of AFA and brief details of each charge' When I recieved my formal warnings that box was filled with, and I quote " ......J/T ****** has bought the good name of the Air Force into disrepute"
F281 is filled out by PSF, and has to be signed by the CHf Clk, are you honestly saying that you know better than a Chf Clk.
 
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Tigger

Guest
ON YOUR appraisal remains exemplary (unless a commissioned reporting officer decides to lower it by one, which he then has to justify).
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I was convicted of a driving a offence a long time ago, 92 if I remember. My JENGO was told by P1 to lower my conduct by two on my appraisal. I went and checked with a PSF friend and discovered there was a condition which said if the line manager thought this was unduly harsh, he could lower it by only one. P1 obviously 'forgot' to mention this. As a result Jengo agreed with me and only lowered it by one. I wasn't subject to a formal warning.

I think with regard to section 69, this is what people are talking about with regard to bringing the RAF into disrepute. Its the coverall when the RAF can't find anything else to screw you with.
 
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PSF Angel

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wgaf said:
When you're next in work I suggest you check out form F281, Report of summary/minor punishment-airmen, there is a box to be filled out titled 'section of AFA and brief details of each charge' When I recieved my formal warnings that box was filled with, and I quote " ......J/T ****** has bought the good name of the Air Force into disrepute"
F281 is filled out by PSF, and has to be signed by the CHf Clk, are you honestly saying that you know better than a Chf Clk.
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No - I'm saying I know better than you. Having worked in P1, there is no section on a F281 that has to be signed by the Chf Clk, only the officer that heard the charge. And as you have just pointed out, the statement about 'bringing the RAF into disrepute' appeared on your FORMAL WARNING and not your charge sheet.
 
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Gunnerrock

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"Section 69 of the Air Force Act - Conduct to the prejudice of good order and Air Force Discipline." and "Bringing the RAF into disrepute."

Don't they both mean the same thing? I just suspect it's easier to say the latter.
 
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PSF Angel

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Maybe a LONG time ago there WAS a charge for bringing the RAF into disrepute. However, Gone soon was enquiring about being charged now, and now there is no such charge.
 
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Gonesoon

Guest
Noodle said:
GS, what is it you are accused of?
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I honestly don't want to say anything at the minute, as I believe that this has gone very high up indeed. It was AOC 2Gp and Defence Communications who have asked for this investigation to be carried out.

I believe my Sengo is going to hear the case which leads me to a couple of points. Firstly since the whole thing has kicked up such a big fuss (and trust me it has!) I feel he will be under pressure to "do something about this mess". Secondly what formal law training does a Sengo have to decide upon a case. (Or does he just go off the recommendation of the RAFP, who are also always under pressure to make charges)

This is why I fear having to take the whole thing to CM, during which time you are treated like s**t
 
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Noodle

Guest
PSF Angel said:
Maybe a LONG time ago there WAS a charge for bringing the RAF into disrepute. However, Gone soon was enquiring about being charged now, and now there is no such charge.
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I was gonna be charged for this 2 year ago, it was changed to conduct unbecoming an airman/woman
 
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wolfy

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Gonesoon said:
I honestly don't want to say anything at the minute, as I believe that this has gone very high up indeed. It was AOC 2Gp and Defence Communications who have asked for this investigation to be carried out.

I believe my Sengo is going to hear the case which leads me to a couple of points. Firstly since the whole thing has kicked up such a big fuss (and trust me it has!) I feel he will be under pressure to "do something about this mess". Secondly what formal law training does a Sengo have to decide upon a case. (Or does he just go off the recommendation of the RAFP, who are also always under pressure to make charges)

This is why I fear having to take the whole thing to CM, during which time you are treated like s**t
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It really depends on the charge and if he feels he has suitable powers to give an appropriate punishment if warrented, if he doesn't he will pass it upwards. which would most likely be a recommendation for a CM. Whilst the RAFP may want to get you! if he did choose this option I suspect it would be under instruction form the CO.

Having been on a CM you are naturally very worried but its nothing you can't survive, just remember that if you go to a summary of evidence if you have anything to use in your defence it may be wise to try and save it till the CM. As all the SoE does is clarify the facts for the prosecution and gives them time to sort out what they will do.
 
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HandbrakeHouse

LAC
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terry14 said:
Prior to the Human Rights Act individuals could not take a charge straight to Court Martial and the RAF were free to do as they pleased in orderly rooms - with the individual having no right to appeal and the officer effectively being the judge and the jury.
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There have been lots of improvements, from what I hear Terry14, but things weren't that bad. An accused in an orderly room had the right to trial by CM if the punishment would affect their pay (essentially a fine). Up to them to take it up.

BTW, anyone point me to a link that shows how to multi-quote?
 
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airforceone

SAC
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HandbrakeHouse said:
There have been lots of improvements, from what I hear Terry14, but things weren't that bad. An accused in an orderly room had the right to trial by CM if the punishment would affect their pay (essentially a fine). Up to them to take it up.

BTW, anyone point me to a link that shows how to multi-quote?
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I think the rules changed and now you have a right to trial by CM at an orderly room regardless of whether the punishment will affect your pay
 
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HandbrakeHouse

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We may be saying the same thing AF1. I was addressing "the RAF were free to do as they pleased in orderly rooms - with the individual having no right to appeal and the officer effectively being the judge and the jury". It wasn't really that bad - indeed, far from it.
 
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