Career Management

[vinnyvx]

No trolling going on here, I've just been too busy to look at the forum.

Going back to my original post. The issue I have with the title career manager is that it creates a perception that we manage careers, lets be honest, CM/drafters don't manage careers, so lets not pretend. Its's a gucci title to look good on a CV, which incidently won't stand up to scrutiny at an interview for a HR job in civvie st. Drafter fits the bill nicely as does manning resource manager etc etc.

The main issue I have is the nepotism in Manning/PMA. It exists, enough drafters/ex drafters have told me so. It exists in the organisation from the top to the bottom. I remember a story about a 2* whose steward didn't get picked up for promotion. The 2* had the board set aside, a new board was held and the 2*s Steward came top of the board. There are plenty more, lets here them... How do we address it and sort the trade out, civilianise PMA.

As for the arguement that there are civilian recruitment difficulties at High Wycombe, its simply not true, Cmd Sec and the Civvie HR business partners will tell you that they have a waiting list of people waiting for civvie jobs here at High Wycombe. My next door neighbour is on it!

As for the arguement that drafting is too difficult/complex to let a civvie or person without recent PSF experience draft, again the arguement doesn't stand up to scrutiny, if this is the case why do the Army and senior RAF officers successfully have civvie drafters/desk officers? If they can do why can't a TG17 WO, FS, Sgt or Cpl or any other trade for that matter go into drafting. You just make sure you train them.

The only way to address the nepotism is to civilianise Manning top to bottom, there wouldn't be any vested interests anymore. As I've said repeatedly if it works for the army and senior RAF officers, why can't it work for the RAF as a whole? It doesn't matter if you like it, we need to fix the trade. We need to spend the money we save on not having RAF drafters on establishing more SACs in PSFs to sort out JPA, etc etc.

I don't have anything against drafters, I applied to be one, it isn't personal, I don't have an axe to grind. Why aren't I applying to be one now they need some on the move to High Wycombe? I decided to leave sometime ago, I may be on the PSL, but my future is elsewhere. I'm cerainly not tied to High Wycombe, I've had 11 posts across the length and breadth of the UK and not complained once.

 

[Man in Black]

I see no reason for it not be possible to provide effective career management while keeping people within their area of choice for the majority of that career, so long as that area is not too restrictive. In return, when it is necessary to move someone away from their AOC, e.g., to gain experience in an employment area not available in Scotland or Lincolnshire, it should be with the expectation of a return to their AOC after 3 - 4 years.

That sounds like working in Civvy street to me. Find a job, try something else then go back to original job. It may be a different RAF from the one most of us joined, but that shouldn't mean the employment fundamentals should change. If a job needs doing, somebody gets sent to do it. Soon people will try getting out of going OOA because they don't fancy the area!

 

[True Blue Jack]

That sounds like working in Civvy street to me. Find a job, try something else then go back to original job. It may be a different RAF from the one most of us joined, but that shouldn't mean the employment fundamentals should change. If a job needs doing, somebody gets sent to do it. Soon people will try getting out of going OOA because they don't fancy the area!

You mean that doesn't happen already? I volunteered for the Gulf because I didn't want to go to the Falklands. My point, poorly made, was that if people declare their area of choice to be Lincolnshire, for example, we can achieve a great range of trade duties while staying within our AOC.

Looking at Pers Admin in particular we can cover many aspects of the trade without leaving the county, or even the Station. If it were beneficial to the Service and the individual's career prospects to move to HW for a tour then it should be contracted that the individual would be given the opportunity to return to their AOC afterwards. It sounds like a Win-Win scenario to me.

We have so far failed to mention the one thing that will prevent this happening, particularly for our technical brethren . . . . . . training costs. Let's face it, once a techie is fully Q'd up on Hercs the chances of him ever leaving Wiltshire are very slim.

 

[tommo9999]

I think there have been a number fo constructive comments here. However, I still believe it is the drafting system that must change. Moving from Service to civilian drafters, but retaining the current system of post allocation, would not achieve that much IMHO. That said, the days of TG17 are numbered and eventually I do think drafting will be civilianised. But I emphasise, civilians just would not entertain working the hours that some drafters are having to put in currently.

 

[shiny_arse]

We have so far failed to mention the one thing that will prevent this happening, particularly for our technical brethren . . . . . . training costs. Let's face it, once a techie is fully Q'd up on Hercs the chances of him ever leaving Wiltshire are very slim.

- VERY TRUE

Moving you on a little further than this. Why not have personnel for the main tied down to one camp and then detach them around the air force as required to pick up shortfalls. The way that the RAF has been decimated recently, it would make life a hell of a lot easier. Personnel can look to buy private accommodation, wifes/husbands of can concentrate on their own careers, kids are settled into area/education. People may still fancy a move around the country and this may be slightly easier to manage. Prime example of this is AIDU down at Northolt. Finish training, arrive Northolt, discharge Northolt.

The way I see things is give it a few more years and the RAF will consist of about a dozen supercamps with all the smaller units falling to the wayside or being almalgamated in order to save more money.

 

[Man in Black]

You mean that doesn't happen already? I volunteered for the Gulf because I didn't want to go to the Falklands. My point, poorly made, was that if people declare their area of choice to be Lincolnshire, for example, we can achieve a great range of trade duties while staying within our AOC.

My comment was actually a bit tongue in cheek. I was aiming it at those who don't want to go OOA and visit the Med Centre instead (with no real ailments before I get lynched!).

Bugger, I've messed the quote up again!

 

[Humble Scribe]

No trolling going on here, I've just been too busy to look at the forum.

I apologise. You did provoke some good reaction then weren't around to back up your statement. You obviously haven't had the luxury of a few days off like me!

As for the arguement that drafting is too difficult/complex to let a civvie or person without recent PSF experience draft, again the arguement doesn't stand up to scrutiny, if this is the case why do the Army and senior RAF officers successfully have civvie drafters/desk officers? If they can do why can't a TG17 WO, FS, Sgt or Cpl or any other trade for that matter go into drafting. You just make sure you train them.

Surely Senior RAF Officers are appointed by the AF Board members and whilst there may be a civvy (ex-RAF) shuffling the paper around, does he really have much say in who goes where?

Whilst I agree that there is a case for same trade drafters, the manning constraints in most TG's at the moment won't allow personnel to be taken off trade to do drafting. Further, do you really think that will reduce the nepotism you complain about or increase it in individual trades?

The only way to address the nepotism is to civilianise Manning top to bottom, there wouldn't be any vested interests anymore. As I've said repeatedly if it works for the army and senior RAF officers, why can't it work for the RAF as a whole? It doesn't matter if you like it, we need to fix the trade. We need to spend the money we save on not having RAF drafters on establishing more SACs in PSFs to sort out JPA, etc etc.

Are your proposals fixing the trade or the begining of the end for the trade? We actually need to re-invent the trade before it's too late not shoot ourselves in the foot by getting rid of our most high profile positions. Whilst I can see some civilinisation just around the corner, I believe the air force needs TG17 personnel in Career Management positions.

 

[vinnyvx]

There's a Civvie drafting Gp Capts and possibly Air Cdres, I'm not sure of the mechanics of it all, however she does draft them.

As for using a tradesman to draft personnel within their trade. I note Desk Officers on the whole draft personnel within their own branch, so it can work. However, it raises the nepotism issue again. I won't get into Gnrs drafting Gnrs! Best off civilianising the whole place.

I think we have to live up to the fact we have more Sgts than Cpls and more Cpls than SACs. We need to make some fundamental changes to the TG17 structure to address the issue. There will be no more cuts in PSF as they are struggling already with the shambles that is JPA. Chopping a few Stn Cdrs PAs will help, but we don't have that many stations left, thus not many Sgt PA posts to chop. The embassy review may help, but again the numbers aren't large. The biggest pot of TG17 manpower in one place is in Manning. Its got to take its fair share of the pain.

Going off topic, Is it true drafters are exempt OOA commitments at the moment? If it's true, it'll generate a few volunteers for drafting! Before anyone says anything I've done 3 OOA tours, all of which I volunteered for.

Going even further off topic, I note on a few peoples P60s, the total salary received box for FY 06/07 doesn't tie up with what the AFPRB said they should have been paid. In my case I'm £60 down. I know of 1 Sqn ldr who is down £2000, check your P60s! JPAC haven't answered my I-support request with their normal retort of " Thank you for your query, please address your query to your Unit HR Staff"

 

[tommo9999]

The biggest pot of TG17 manpower in one place is in Manning. Its got to take its fair share of the pain.

Does that include the recent 40% cut in drafters or not?

 

[True Blue Jack]

There's a Civvie drafting Gp Capts and possibly Air Cdres, I'm not sure of the mechanics of it all, however she does draft them.

That's true - she has been doing the job for a long time, is a senior civil servant and works hand-in-glove with a retired Air Cdre. As previously stated the AFB decides who goes where at that level, not the desk officer.

As for using a tradesman to draft personnel within their trade. I note Desk Officers on the whole draft personnel within their own branch, so it can work. However, it raises the nepotism issue again. I won't get into Gnrs drafting Gnrs! Best off civilianising the whole place.

There is an argument to get some first-hand trade experience into the drafting cycle, but you would then get into the argument of Tonka-qualified guys drafting/advising for Nimrod units. As for civvies - would you like your career to be managed by someone who has never worn the uniform?

I think we have to live up to the fact we have more Sgts than Cpls

True. For many reasons, not just ACOS Manning and Embassies. Look around any MOB and you will find a fair number of SNCO Pers Admin with no uniformed subordinates. Multiply that for Cmd, MOD and NATO units.

and more Cpls than SACs.

Forgetting that we are undermanned at SAC level presently the establishment requires more SACs than Cpls or Sgts. Personally I disagree with the proposed pyramid. JPA has removed many of the 'personnel administration' tasks that fell to TG17, but the emphasis on 'personnel management' is greater than ever. Frankly, vinny, I find your arguments ill-conceived and ill-prepared.

Going even further off topic, I note on a few peoples P60s, the total salary received box for FY 06/07 doesn't tie up with what the AFPRB said they should have been paid. In my case I'm £60 down. I know of 1 Sqn ldr who is down £2000, check your P60s! JPAC haven't answered my I-support request with their normal retort of " Thank you for your query, please address your query to your Unit HR Staff"

Off Topic I assume you checked all the possible reasons - grade step change, legacy overissue, being a biff and reading the salary scales incorrectly, etc., - before you dived straight in with a Service Request. It's all very well slagging off JPAC but if you pay them a visit they will show you how many people start off a SR with the words "I am Unit HR" and then go on to ask a question which proves they are not worthy of the name.

I have the opposite problem because the new-style P60 lumps basic pay together with LSA (and possibly HDT, I need to check), which is going to make my Child Tax Credit claim kind of interesting.

 

[Boarderlyne]

...Off Topic I assume you checked all the possible reasons - grade step change, legacy overissue, being a biff and reading the salary scales incorrectly, etc., - before you dived straight in with a Service Request. It's all very well slagging off JPAC but if you pay them a visit they will show you how many people start off a SR with the words "I am Unit HR" and then go on to ask a question which proves they are not worthy of the name.

I have the opposite problem because the new-style P60 lumps basic pay together with LSA (and possibly HDT, I need to check), which is going to make my Child Tax Credit claim kind of interesting.

Thankfully LOA does not get put on the P60 otherwise I would be truly stuffed! I always call CTC with to confirm my wage for the last year and advise them of next FY's gross pay. End of Off Topic

Back to the thread, Officers get a different type of training and are expected to be switched-on cookies DT_Xtremez_03: which is why they can put Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs behind a desk for a couple of years to control the whole branch. As to ground trade drafting, how many ground trades want to be pulled away from their core tasking to shuffle paper? Rocks are a good example. So are Liney Snecks. How much bitching do you hear about how promotion takes the guys away from the grease and grime and sticks them behind a desk?

We are paper shufflers by choice and therefore make the natural choice for drafters. While the addition of specialist trade knowledge to ACOS Manning would be brilliant, why do we then continue to carry out multi-skilling so that the right guy can fix a Tonka or a Fat Albert? Or advise Stns/Wgs/Sqns to make sure that all appropriate Q annotations are on the LUE?

While I agree that some of the tasking could be transferred to the civil service, how many on E1 wages are going to take the sh**e that a drafter normally takes or the manic task-load? High Wycombe are going to have to find 50 plus E1's for when Manning arrives and when you consider the average wage around that area, most people are going to turn their noses up at a E1 job when you could probably get a better whack shelf stacking at Sainsburys and a whole lot less stress! So saying that a mate's wife is on the waiting list is no real indicator of how easy it is to fill an E1 slot. I have friends at High Wycombe and very few of them would even consider the Civil Service as a valid choice of a job while in that area.

Plus, most have to join the Civil Service at E2 level and prove themselves capable before gaining promotion. Allowing them to join the Civil Service as E1's would be the equivalent of a LAC coming out of RAF SA and being told that they are now in charge of 4 PD points!

I agree with Tommo that is the system that needs to be reviewed, albeit this is on blind faith as he had the most recent experience of the system and he knows the Secret books that govern drafting! DT_Xtremez_28: My experience is a prime example, 8 Registry associated jobs in 12 years is a bit much, so a variation on a theme would be welcome, but that said, I have been to some interesting areas that I would never have gone to while in Civvy Street. Christmas Days in Limassol/Byron Heights/Driving the length of Bosnia/On SGF at Uxbridge/on the lash in Carterton are experiences I would never have had if I had not joined up. DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[tommo9999]

Thread Closed

Thread Closed

This thread has now moved onto a new subject so I have moved those posts to it. It's called Future of TG17.

Thread Closed.