Are EngOfficers just glorified workshop Foreman's?

[Compo21]

Looking at the career of engineering officer as I'm currently an engineering student at university. It seems that you are not actually an engineer in the RAF but more of a workshop foreman and technician manager who only has to have an appreciation of engineering. I used to be a mechanic on HGV trucks and I didn't go through 6 years of education as a mature student to end up back in a workshop where the only engineering done is take the broken part off and put a new one on!

 

[briggfairy]

As someone who spent 10 years as a technician, mainly on squadrons, before leaving to study a BENG part time whilst working as a project engineer in the chemical industry I can't help to feel that you may well have hit the nail on the head for the vast majority of engineering officer roles.

the RAF as a rule does not introduce new technology or use existing technology in an innovative way (which are the requirements of a chartered engineer). This work is invariably carried out in the defence industry.

The role of an engineering officer is a manager of trade specialists, whilst this isn't engineering in its true form it could be argued that being a manager of people can be a lot more difficult than being an engineer. People are invariably Kn0bheads, the rules of physics tend not to be.

If you wish to be an engineer the RAF probably isn't the place for you, but then again the entry requirements are much lower than most engineering graduate schemes (no Meng required for a start).

 

[SAXAVORDIAN]

Being a sideway look do the Navy still have Artificers. Maybe if the RAF outlook doesn't pan out in engineering sense other branches of the military still retain the appeal.

 

[Shiny10]

I'm a man manager

I'm a man manager

Once in 26 years I asked the J Eng O for advice after an unusual problem. The conversation went like this:

"Did you do 'Critical Load Path Analysis' at university?"

"Yes I did"

"What checks do you recommend we do for this problem?"

"I can't remember anything about it, it was a long time ago (all of two years). I'm here as a 'man manager' so do what you think is required"

"Yes Ma'am, thank you"

 

[Late & Tired]

^^^^^^
And that, very eloquently identifies the difference to me, between leadership and management.
Leadership is about a whole host of qualities, which ultimately gain you respect, and a willingness for others to support and follow your directives, often based on experience and proven sound judgement.
Management is decision making, based on facts placed in front of you.

 

[metimmee]

Looking at the career of engineering officer as I'm currently an engineering student at university. It seems that you are not actually an engineer in the RAF but more of a workshop foreman and technician manager who only has to have an appreciation of engineering. I used to be a mechanic on HGV trucks and I didn't go through 6 years of education as a mature student to end up back in a workshop where the only engineering done is take the broken part off and put a new one on!

Disclaimer...I'm not an EngO!

I think some of the posts here are quite pessimistic about the role of Engineering Officers in the RAF. I think the best way to visualise the role of an EngO is to look at where they are heading as they ascend the ranks. For sure, the JEngO's will fill less glamorous roles early in their career development but as they develop and learn different roles they can reach the more challenging and interesting jobs. As an aircraft engineering JEngO you are learning the skills to be trusted with airworthiness delegations. Later on, you may be in charge of the airworthiness of whole platforms or units. To do this, you have to be able to consult the technical SMEs but it'll be down to you...within the confines of your delegated powers to make a decision. The military are professional risk takers, that means making informed decisions not being reckless or paralysed by caution. You could be a JEngO in theatre who is has to make a call to ground a fleet of aircraft which has severe operational impacts with someone in green, often senior to you, wanting your head on a platter as a result of your decision. An EngO has to be able to navigate all of the resource, technical and operational tensions that take place day to day, look at the strategic view and sell it to the personnel working for you...if you can. You'll be working with some experienced WO and SNCOs who will help you make decisions and working for bosses that will stretch your resources to the limit.

If you're really interested in it as a career option, best thing to do is try and speak those that are serving in the engineering branch. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

 

[Stevienics]

The military are professional risk takers

My experience is that they are quite the opposite. Yes, they are paid to be, but they'd rather avoid it and wait their 2 years out in career safety

 

[briggfairy]

Disclaimer...I'm not an EngO!

I think some of the posts here are quite pessimistic about the role of Engineering Officers in the RAF. I think the best way to visualise the role of an EngO is to look at where they are heading as they ascend the ranks. For sure, the JEngO's will fill less glamorous roles early in their career development but as they develop and learn different roles they can reach the more challenging and interesting jobs. As an aircraft engineering JEngO you are learning the skills to be trusted with airworthiness delegations. Later on, you may be in charge of the airworthiness of whole platforms or units. To do this, you have to be able to consult the technical SMEs but it'll be down to you...within the confines of your delegated powers to make a decision. The military are professional risk takers, that means making informed decisions not being reckless or paralysed by caution. You could be a JEngO in theatre who is has to make a call to ground a fleet of aircraft which has severe operational impacts with someone in green, often senior to you, wanting your head on a platter as a result of your decision. An EngO has to be able to navigate all of the resource, technical and operational tensions that take place day to day, look at the strategic view and sell it to the personnel working for you...if you can. You'll be working with some experienced WO and SNCOs who will help you make decisions and working for bosses that will stretch your resources to the limit.

If you're really interested in it as a career option, best thing to do is try and speak those that are serving in the engineering branch. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Whilst I would not disagree with anything you have said there, you have very eloquently described the job of a manager rather than that of an engineer.

In the RAF as an engineering officer you are very unlikely to design anything, less likely to prototype something and you will not bring a new innovation to your industry.

It really comes down to how important engineering is to you, in a way this is quite an important difference to understand and the relevant professional accreditation bodies (IET, IChemE, IMechE, etc) would give you a better understanding of the differences and whilst good engineer is not necessarily a good manager, a manager in an engineering environment should have some knowledge of engineering (although doesn't need to be particularly good at it, they just need to understand the situation).

It is also worth pointing out that in civvy street you will only be a hands on engineer for the outset of your career, as you progress you will lead a team of engineers (and therefore be much in the same situation as you would in the RAF).

In simple terms if you want to spend the early part of your career having chances to go to interesting places and having the chance to do interesting things then the RAF is a very good option (particularly given the relatively low entry requirements for engo). You'll most likely end up in an engineering management position by the time your in your 40's whatever path you take so take the path that looks the most interesting to you.

 

[Stevienics]

....... If it's still what you want, buy a house near Bristol. Soon.

 

[metimmee]

Whilst I would not disagree with anything you have said there, you have very eloquently described the job of a manager rather than that of an engineer.

In the RAF as an engineering officer you are very unlikely to design anything, less likely to prototype something and you will not bring a new innovation to your industry.

It really comes down to how important engineering is to you, in a way this is quite an important difference to understand and the relevant professional accreditation bodies (IET, IChemE, IMechE, etc) would give you a better understanding of the differences and whilst good engineer is not necessarily a good manager, a manager in an engineering environment should have some knowledge of engineering (although doesn't need to be particularly good at it, they just need to understand the situation).

It is also worth pointing out that in civvy street you will only be a hands on engineer for the outset of your career, as you progress you will lead a team of engineers (and therefore be much in the same situation as you would in the RAF).

In simple terms if you want to spend the early part of your career having chances to go to interesting places and having the chance to do interesting things then the RAF is a very good option (particularly given the relatively low entry requirements for engo). You'll most likely end up in an engineering management position by the time your in your 40's whatever path you take so take the path that looks the most interesting to you.

The reason I made the point about delegation holders is precisely why EngOs are engineers in the traditional sense. The UK-Spec for professional engineering competence, CEng (p.24) includes accountability and responsibility as key competencies, the term engineer doesnt just apply to blank-whiteboard design of engineering solutions. I think most EngO are IEng and aim to progress to CEng when they've achieved the necessary experience. If they don't get to CEng, they'll never be an OC Eng or equivalent.

In my time, I think the closest to the traditional design and development I've witnessed is software duties. Funnily enough, when some of my colleagues were being assessed for IEng, the ex RAF EngO assessor couldnt believe JNCOs actually designed and developed software/test schedules and refused to sign them up for IEng.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Whilst I would not disagree with anything you have said there, you have very eloquently described the job of a manager rather than that of an engineer.

In the RAF as an engineering officer you are very unlikely to design anything, less likely to prototype something and you will not bring a new innovation to your industry.

It really comes down to how important engineering is to you, in a way this is quite an important difference to understand and the relevant professional accreditation bodies (IET, IChemE, IMechE, etc) would give you a better understanding of the differences and whilst good engineer is not necessarily a good manager, a manager in an engineering environment should have some knowledge of engineering (although doesn't need to be particularly good at it, they just need to understand the situation).

It is also worth pointing out that in civvy street you will only be a hands on engineer for the outset of your career, as you progress you will lead a team of engineers (and therefore be much in the same situation as you would in the RAF).

In simple terms if you want to spend the early part of your career having chances to go to interesting places and having the chance to do interesting things then the RAF is a very good option (particularly given the relatively low entry requirements for engo). You'll most likely end up in an engineering management position by the time your in your 40's whatever path you take so take the path that looks the most interesting to you.

Not sure I agree with the highlighted sentence, it may however be your experience. It is my experience in the organisations I have worked within, that 'hands-on' engineering, as you put it, does not end as individuals progress up the food chain. Many organisations these days have a 'flat' (as opposed to the mil' pyramid) organisational structure. So often snr engineers do quite a myriad of tasks - because there is nt anyone else who is there to do it.
..... My view is that it depends on the bubble you work in

 

[Stevienics]

and notwithstanding...

you will only be a hands on engineer for the outset of your career

..this bit is very very valuable, and RAF Engineering Officers don't get any of it.

 

[Rigga]

I for one think the OP has the EngO's career properly assessed.
Every RAF EngO starts (as a fengo or bengo) in an essentially admin role managing the manpower working under their banner and, until assessed as fit by an NCO, supervised by competent staff.
The guidance given to them for signing "Reds and Greens", their most important 'engineering' role for some long time of their careers, is also from NCOs too.
Only when they get to the heights of SengO do they get some actual engineering credence, and even then it is a technician management role, not actually engineering, where they react to certain parameters and are given procedural paths to follow to create their so-called policies or decisions.
Due to some form of insecurity, their roles also create masses of burocracy and needless interference/complications leading to a "self-licking lolly" syndrome.
By the time they retire, most Engo's are burned out by their roles and leave the aviation industry, and those that have progressed enough to delegate their work to underlings join BAES/Boeing/Air Tanker.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

I plan to remain 'hands on' throughout my career. Becoming an engineering manager isn't the only path.