Air Transport Regulations

[Ghost Rider]

I wonder if someone appropriately skilled would mind answering a few questions please?

There has been a few comments (and I know, not all of them complimentary ) on ARRSE regarding items prohibited from transport on Mil a/c.

I'll summarise here with a cut/paste from the ARRSE thread, and hope that this can be kept as a sensible discussion, rather than descend into the usual pointless slagging match

Someone, somewhere, must have a definitive answer. A copy of the actual document concerned (AP1990?) would be a useful start, if anyone has an electronic copy they could send me?

Regards,

Ghost

 

[M_for_Mother]

I had a glance at that thread earlier, I can't see why the Brown Jobs are complaining. I can understand the need to hand-carry small arms in theatre; but knives...?

We would have to be pretty hard-pressed at Basrah, if the Infantry thinks they need to deploy with close-quarter weapons in their hand luggage!

Its just a case of typical whinging about AT that is, frankly, SOP on Arrse. I did find it hilarious that the SAS fella's Dad had reported the penknife banning incident to the press. Presumably in between folding up his little jimmy jams and tucking him in for the night. SF my ass.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I had a glance at that thread earlier, I can't see why the Brown Jobs are complaining. I can understand the need to hand-carry small arms in theatre; but knives...?

We would have to be pretty hard-pressed at Basrah, if the Infantry thinks they need to deploy with close-quarter weapons in their hand luggage!

Its just a case of typical whinging about AT that is, frankly, SOP on Arrse. I did find it hilarious that the SAS fella's Dad had reported the penknife banning incident to the press. Presumably in between folding up his little jimmy jams and tucking him in for the night. SF my ass.

Could you please expand on why a Leatherman tool would be considered as a Close-Quarter Weapon? The only thing I would like it in close quarters to would be:

1. Anywhere you need to strip wire
2. Anywhere you need a screwdriver
3. Anywhere you need a pair of scissors
4. Anywhere you need a pair of pliers

etc etc

The key thing about all the above is that being in close proximity of the enemy is prominently missing! However, for the non-infanteer, working in a radio vehicle, communications centre, headquarters etc they arre invaluable.

So, thank you for your considered opinion. Would you care to expand?

Ghost

 

[M_for_Mother]

Unless you're planning on using the tool whilst on the ac, which is not a good idea in my experience, there is no need to have it in your hand luggage.

Its not likely that you'll be required to carry out your primary role immediately upon leaving the ac, so just stick the Leatherman in your Bergan and fetch it out when you get through processing. This is a non-issue.

 

[SLRious]

Could you please expand on why a Leatherman tool would be considered as a Close-Quarter Weapon? The only thing I would like it in close quarters to would be:

1. Anywhere you need to strip wire
2. Anywhere you need a screwdriver
3. Anywhere you need a pair of scissors
4. Anywhere you need a pair of pliers

etc etc

The key thing about all the above is that being in close proximity of the enemy is prominently missing! However, for the non-infanteer, working in a radio vehicle, communications centre, headquarters etc they arre invaluable.

So, thank you for your considered opinion. Would you care to expand?

Ghost

Jeezzz.... I know that money is tight but surely you get issued with tools if you’re required to fix a radio!!

It really is very simple, if you want to play with knives and are going to take a flight, pack the knife with your checked in luggage.

 

[PTC REMF]

Still can't understand why Aircrew who carry knives in their survival E&E kits are having them removed from hold luggage by RAFP on AT back from theatre.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Jeezzz.... I know that money is tight but surely you get issued with tools if you’re required to fix a radio!!

It really is very simple, if you want to play with knives and are going to take a flight, pack the knife with your checked in luggage.

LOL!

Yes, of course we do (but you'll still confiscate a screwdriver and a pair of pliers )

 

[Ghost Rider]

Unless you're planning on using the tool whilst on the ac, which is not a good idea in my experience, there is no need to have it in your hand luggage.

Its not likely that you'll be required to carry out your primary role immediately upon leaving the ac, so just stick the Leatherman in your Bergan and fetch it out when you get through processing. This is a non-issue.

I absolutely agree; it should be a non-issue.

However (and this is quoted from another user, not personal experience) when RAFP decide that you cannot even transport it in your bergan and confiscate it, there are naturally 2 accusations laid squarely at their door:

1. That they are being "jobsworth w@nkers"
2. That perhaps they are running a nice little sideline on eBay.

(Both of those are quoted from the thread on ARRSE I alluded to above)

The debate is focussed on these points:

1. Why would anyone deem a leatherman (or any other knife, for that matter) to be unsuitable for transporting in a soldier's bergan?

2. Why are there movement staff floating around on the airframe with Leatherman tools et al hanging off their belts? Are they under different security arrangements to the rest of us?

3. Why are personnel allowed to retain their individual weapon whilst on the flight, yet are prohibited from retaining nail clippers? and please don't just say "regulations", because nobody is going to suffer a worse fate from a pair of nail clippers than from the blunt end of a Rifle 5.56mm

4. Why are some RAFP quite willing to apply some common sense in these areas, where others are perhaps in need of a visit to a health farm for colonic irrigation?

I apologise if some of my earlier examples failed to adequately state the concerns held by many. Hopefully, this post should leave no-one in any doubt as to the points raised.

Regards,

Ghost

 

[always_broken_in_wilts]

J Model Loadie here,

Last week I was given a set of nail scissors by the movers in one of the Balkans airheads. The nailscissors had been confiscated by the Scuffers, RAF I think, iaw their regulations, which feckin suck.

Crazy when you consider on show in the back of our Albert were the following items,

9 BCF fire extinguishers
over 40 tensioners
over 40 assorted lengths of chain
2 portable oxygen bottles
a set of bolt croppers
a survival pack containing a whole host of pyrotechnics
2 fire axes each secured only by 2 poppers

All of the above are freely available, not hidden and a feck sight more dangerous than a leatherman/nail scissors etc so why are knives etc confiscated, it's quite simple really OC plod loves to feck folks about and this is another classic example.

They will tell you that CAA regs blah blah mean they have to confiscate these items but if we can virtually ignore the rules and regulations laid down for the carriage of Dangerous Air Cargo that our civilian counterparts adhere to why do we enforce this stupid rule.

Needless to say I gave the scissors back straight away, as I have done on numerous occasions and will continue to do.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

 

[Bushy Mills]

J Model Loadie here,

Needless to say I gave the scissors back straight away, as I have done on numerous occasions and will continue to do.

My GOD! OC Scuffers, arrest that man, he shows signs of commonsense and good nature.

 

[Jag Fag]

J Model Loadie here,

Last week I was given a set of nail scissors by the movers in one of the Balkans airheads. The nailscissors had been confiscated by the Scuffers, RAF I think, iaw their regulations, which feckin suck.

Crazy when you consider on show in the back of our Albert were the following items,

9 BCF fire extinguishers
over 40 tensioners
over 40 assorted lengths of chain
2 portable oxygen bottles
a set of bolt croppers
a survival pack containing a whole host of pyrotechnics
2 fire axes each secured only by 2 poppers

All of the above are freely available, not hidden and a feck sight more dangerous than a leatherman/nail scissors etc so why are knives etc confiscated, it's quite simple really OC plod loves to feck folks about and this is another classic example.

They will tell you that CAA regs blah blah mean they have to confiscate these items but if we can virtually ignore the rules and regulations laid down for the carriage of Dangerous Air Cargo that our civilian counterparts adhere to why do we enforce this stupid rule.

Needless to say I gave the scissors back straight away, as I have done on numerous occasions and will continue to do.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Good point, everytime I feel psychotic on a herc I am prevented from taking everyone out because I've had my leatherman confiscated. Next time I'll have the bolt croppers and cut them funny moving cables at the top of the fuselage

The average pax on a military flight (epsecially to hot sandy places) is highly unlikely going to try and hijack the flight especially when surrounded by plenty of suitably trained people to overcome him/her - can't speak for the pongos though. It is possible, I suppose that a whole platoon may have a suicide pact

When travelling by herc I've always shared it with my sqn's tool kits in the 'pack' - occasionally the tools ARE required as soon as leaving the aircraft and prior to deployment we ensure the tools are easy to remove (ie: a quick repair on a trail home etc) with a litlle help from the loadie. Thank god for a bit of common sense.

 

[Stax]

J Model Loadie here,

They will tell you that CAA regs blah blah mean they have to confiscate these items but if we can virtually ignore the rules and regulations laid down for the carriage of Dangerous Air Cargo that our civilian counterparts adhere to why do we enforce this stupid rule.


all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Sorry J type, I will take umbrage to that. We (the RAF) are amongst the best in the world at packing and transporting DAC. Our DG course is used by the Army the Navy and all civvy contractors. We conform to all CAA or JSP 335 (whichever is the authority) regs, at the end of the course you are awarded a CAA qualification. We have to re-qualify every 3 years in packaging to ADR, IMDG and DAC standards and we send kit by military and civil air. If there is a problem with transporting DAC at your end, maybe you should look closer to home!

Jag Type

The stupidity of taking all our sharp tools (aka officers) from us was explained to me thus "Its in case we have to divert into a civvy airport, the local authorities would impound all our leathermen/machetes/LAW/Frag etc). I had to ask the question as I was deploying a Rapier Sqn to the Gulf after 9/11. You try telling a hairy ar5ed rock he can't have his gerber attached to his belt when deploying!

 

[Plumber]

The only thing I have a problem with on this thread is the Gerber/Leathermans, only for the whole issue of tool control etc.etc. Survival knives and other such things should only be carried by those who need them.

Having just recently done an OOA if you looked at the notice boards knocking around, they clearly tell you what is and isn't allowed in your hand and hold baggage. These rules are there for a reason, the copper that takes them off you is only doing his job.

How many people actually (in the RAF) have a valid requirement for a 12" blade or Leatherman/Gerber. Whilst the later may be useful (easier than getting the tool kit out) I can't stand the bloody things and think it should be a chargeable offence to have anywhere near an aircraft/ techie environment.

Just my opinion, not a popular one maybe but there you go.

 

[Flt Lt Badminton-Squash]

Stax,
Sharp tools indeed!
Still mentioning the regiment, perhaps a re-trade from Supply?

Good responce, I have to agree there does seem to be no thought regarding 'the sharps' rule. The fact that the RAF have some of the best qualified personnel with regards to DAC should never be questioned. 'Some' my not quite understand the indepth traning required to be able to despatch something as inane as superglue or as precarious as M.E.K, to any location throughout the world. Itis however, a thank less task done very well by members of logistics.

Anyway, just a thought...

 

[rest have risen above me]

How dare you malign the movers utility belt? The Gerber/Leatherman is the perfect way to accessorize a totally unneccessary flying suit, and if you didn't know that then your fashion sense is plainly with the Trinny and Sussanna brigade (bitches the both of them). And on the same subject of the utility belt why do the RAF Coppers have to carry their complete life on display on the belt. (ie two mobiles, one radio, truncheon, 6 cell maglite, imitation CS spray(not allowed real ones yet), Tazer (allowed back from where ever on RAF Flt 1234 cos his mate was doing the check in), 9mm Browning and finally cuffs. When do you need that lot when all you’re doing is passenger check in? (I'll go and start another thread about cuffs as I suspect that they could be quite a touchy legal subject if they were ever used and I need more info to argue that point) Jobsworth idiots the lot of em.

For DAC etc I agree with Stax we are some of the experts in moving bombs and shells etc around (although we do drop some sometimes) but we are also a military force that uses its sharp pointy things quite a bit, if we divert into a civvy field you just don’t let Johnny foreigner on the aircraft. Then make sure the pax understand to leave all samurai swords, claymores, machetes and nail clippers by their seats. I was away on the 11th Sept and when it came to getting home they were so jobsworth I had to sit and do the crossword in crayon as pens were included as sharp pointy things.
PS. Plumber the uncontrolled tool thing is valid and I agree but would that mean we have to tag the movers out.

 

[Twonston Pickle]

I refer you to the lyrics of a well known song regarding movers:

We don't need no education. We don't need no tool control.

Slightly modified, I know, but I think it reflects their general lack of understanding and implications.

Slightly more on thread; why are we allowed to even pack our "sharps" in our checked-in (hold) baggage. Last time I flew on ops, I had full access to my checked-in baggage and even slept on it (Herc)! Seem to negate the need for such stringent security checks.

 

[always_broken_in_wilts]

Stax,

Humble apologies as for once, and don't you feckin dare tell anyone I said this, I am not maligning the movements trade.

The point I was trying to make was we have pretty much ripped up the rules with regards to the carriage of peeps with DAC. IATA's would never clear most of what we now carry under the OP's umbrella. We willy nilly make everyone Cat A pax and then carry pretty much any type of DAC, unless of course the 335 says it's forbidden, which it hardly ever does.

However whilst I agree you guys are the bee knee's at packing DAC why is that as soon as you get it near the aircraft all common sense heads south and you load it like a bunch of beef smoking ballet dancers.......just a thought

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

 

[Ghost Rider]

I refer you to the lyrics of a well known song regarding movers:

We don't need no education. We don't need no tool control.

Slightly modified, I know, but I think it reflects their general lack of understanding and implications.

Slightly more on thread; why are we allowed to even pack our "sharps" in our checked-in (hold) baggage. Last time I flew on ops, I had full access to my checked-in baggage and even slept on it (Herc)! Seem to negate the need for such stringent security checks.

Which is one of the points I made earlier on. Is it not almost pointless on a C-130 to make the distinction between hand luggage and the rest? Or am I simply being obtuse?

The times I have been anywhere operationally on anything other than a herc are very few and far between. On each trip on a herc, I could generally get to my luggage without too much of a problem. But, as was stated above, surely the Fire Axe etc would be far better than any other "sharp"......

Ghost

 

[aes69]

Leathermen & Gerbers are allowed on most military flights (spec regs apply if you've been told to remove them, but they are few and far between) The ATSy staff at BZN & LYN are way too strict on certain items and I have my own theory on that, but they are being very black & white when it comes to adhereing to the regs! No common sense is being applied and they do treat everyone as 'un-known' pax!

Where is the line drawn though? Different people have different standards so it is easier for all if you listen to the briefs then the feds enforce the regs to the letter. Not my way of doing things, but it's they way they see fit.

Coppers utility belts, if they're issued pistols mags, handcuffs and batons, then they wear them! Your problem is? The feds at BZN & LYN are shift coppers, not purely ATSy, so they're on duty for the whole stn, they could just throw them under the table, but you'd only slate them for that too!

"I'll go and start another thread about cuffs as I suspect that they could be quite a touchy legal subject if they were ever used and I need more info to argue that point"

What would you have in mind? The feds are trained in their use, and are bound by strict regs for their use. What part of your legal background has a problem with this part of service law?

"if we divert into a civvy field you just don’t let Johnny foreigner on the aircraft."

Yes we do! We are terrible for bending over backwards to ensure we don't offend our hosts. Even for loads of special classification we allow local joe bloggs on board to check paperwork etc.

Bottom line, people who enforce the regs are the people who get it in the neck, damned if you do, damned if you don't!

Shut up and adhere to the regs, if you feel hard done by, use that new invention called the 'chain of command' If more complaints were made for crap coppers we might be able to weed out the dross.

 

[always_broken_in_wilts]

aes69

"Leathermen & Gerbers are allowed on most military flights (spec regs apply if you've been told to remove them, but they are few and far between)"

Rattle this by me again as the usual plod excuse for stealing them is compliance with CAA/FAA regs which we all know the system ignores daily with regards to just about everything else we carry

"if we divert into a civvy field you just don’t let Johnny foreigner on the aircraft."

"Yes we do! We are terrible for bending over backwards to ensure we don't offend our hosts. Even for loads of special classification we allow local joe bloggs on board to check paperwork etc."

Total and utter boll@cks, which is no suprise coming from RAF plod

No you don't, the guy who lets the local hosts onboard is the Aircraft Captain as he's the guy in charge. Group Air Staff Orders allow him him to devolve that authority to the ALM who, acting on his behalf, ensures that all Customs and immigration matters are dealt with correctly.

Plod travelling on AT, as support crew, have only two responsibilities which are guarding and baggage checks for on coming pax Everything else rests with the professionals.....................scuffers..................

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced