Latest Cuts Rumour....

[muttywhitedog]

Of course it's reasonable to question the legitimacy of the musician trade in today's climate and I wouldn't be surprised if one of the 3 bands was, umm, disbanded as a result of the SDSR

Why only one? We need kit, aircraft and war fighters, not trombonists and drummers.

This SDSR needs to get a serious grip on the non-essentials. Pomp & ceremony is nice but it also costs - and every pound spent on having soldiers on horses poncing around London is a pound not being spent on another soldier receiving "incoming" in a far-off land.

Wars are not won by being good at marching to music!

 

[Stevienics]

Sadly, I think you are right. That's why I suggested a while ago that the Reds may also be at risk and may explain why ground has not yet been broken at Waddington on their new facility, despite them supposedly moving in a year from now.

You could be right, and corrected as I was in a previous post about funding, where I understand that this is externally provisioned now, I would guesstimate that this is more about been seen to burn cash in three different smokey colours, than actually doing it.

Not everyone will love to see precision aerobatics in a public sector amputation period.

 

[I`m Ron Burgundy?]

Why only one? We need kit, aircraft and war fighters, not trombonists and drummers.

This SDSR needs to get a serious grip on the non-essentials. Pomp & ceremony is nice but it also costs - and every pound spent on having soldiers on horses poncing around London is a pound not being spent on another soldier receiving "incoming" in a far-off land.

Wars are not won by being good at marching to music!

Agreed, never happen though... bet we continue to see those same soldiers on those horses til they are the only ones left but getting the same pay freeze...

 

[True Blue Jack]

Why only one? We need kit, aircraft and war fighters, not trombonists and drummers.

This SDSR needs to get a serious grip on the non-essentials. Pomp & ceremony is nice but it also costs - and every pound spent on having soldiers on horses poncing around London is a pound not being spent on another soldier receiving "incoming" in a far-off land.

Wars are not won by being good at marching to music!

All of the above is true but engagement with the public also has its place. We forgot that once before and it took Iraq and Afghanistan to put us back in the public's good books. I'm sure you remember the Royal Tournament? Working it was a right royal pain in the proverbial but I believe the Armed Forces are poorer without it.

This argument is being replicated in my small corner of Bomber County. I am custodian of the building which houses both the physio department and voluntary bands, and there is some conflict between them over the areas that they share. The physios argue that they are more essential to operational output while the bands argue that they were here first. It's all very immature and I had to bang their heads together last week and remind them that it doesn't have to be "either/or". I believe the same is true for the wider RAF - we can support the front line and have air shows, marching music, etc. Whether we will be allowed to is another matter.

 

[MrBee]

How many OOA posts are established for Musicians then? Notwithstanding their role in war, how many of them actually deploy to fill posts OOA? Not the gucci little job in Turkey (Which is actually an Any Trade job), which they fall over themselves to fill, but genuine established posts on any OET? The answer is NIL, and therefore they do not have an expeditionary role. They are great to watch and listen to, but they do not deploy and therefore it is perfectly reasonable to raise their legitimacy when cuts will be made.

The Turkey Roll has only been filled 3 times by musicians.

OOA dets include. Force Protection - Kabul, JHF - KAF and Bastion, OPLOC - KAF, PSYOPS - Iraq, Covoy Commander - Iraq, Op Buzzard - Lash / Fob Price, Ambulance Drivers - Falkland Islands.

Our offical War Roll is CDT.

We no longer fill the roll of medics

Hope it clears a bit up for people.

Barns

 

[MrBee]

The Turkey Roll has only been filled 3 times by musicians.

OOA dets include. Force Protection - Kabul, JHF - KAF and Bastion, OPLOC - KAF, PSYOPS - Iraq, Covoy Commander - Iraq, Op Buzzard - Lash / Fob Price, Ambulance Drivers - Falkland Islands.

Our offical War Roll is CDT.

We no longer fill the roll of medics

Hope it clears a bit up for people.

Barns

Not CDT, sorry, Casualty Decontamination.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/sbccom_decon.pdf

 

[Trusty Adjusty]

The Turkey Roll has only been filled 3 times by musicians.

OOA dets include. Force Protection - Kabul, JHF - KAF and Bastion, OPLOC - KAF, PSYOPS - Iraq, Covoy Commander - Iraq, Op Buzzard - Lash / Fob Price, Ambulance Drivers - Falkland Islands.

Our offical War Roll is CDT.

We no longer fill the roll of medics

Hope it clears a bit up for people.

Barns

Fair play, I know of many Aircraft Technicians who haven't left the UK in 10 years or more (15 in one case) everyone does their bit in different ways, regardless of their primary role - musicians clearly pull their weight OOA and we shouldn't be so quick to vilify.

 

[tommo9999]

The Turkey Roll has only been filled 3 times by musicians. Just the three, but it is an Any Trade Post.

OOA dets include. Force Protection - Kabul, JHF - KAF and Bastion, OPLOC - KAF, PSYOPS - Iraq, Covoy Commander - Iraq, Op Buzzard - Lash / Fob Price, Ambulance Drivers - Falkland Islands. Which are all Any Trade Posts and can be filled by anyone.

Our offical War Roll is CDT. Last used when?

We no longer fill the roll of medics

Hope it clears a bit up for people.

Barns

I reiterate my earlier point - there are NO established OOA posts for musicians, notwithstanding how many Any Trade posts they may have filled. They do not have a deployable role, and it brings into question their relevance/importance. As I also said, I enjoy watching/listening to them, but can we afford them?

 

[True Blue Jack]

Tommo, I think you are splitting hairs unnecessarily. Yes, they are any trade posts but if those posts weren't being filled by musicians, dental nurses, etc., then they would be filled by personnel from trades who likely already have a heavy commitment to deployed ops.

Lose the bands and those any trade posts may come back to haunt you.

 

[Max Reheat]

Moving away from the musician bashing, did anyone else hear on the news today that Liam Fox said there will be a role in the future after the SDR for the RAF and Navy? Didn't catch the whole story but it sounds like there will be no mass merger with the Army from the little I did hear

 

[tommo9999]

Tommo, I think you are splitting hairs unnecessarily. Yes, they are any trade posts but if those posts weren't being filled by musicians, dental nurses, etc., then they would be filled by personnel from trades who likely already have a heavy commitment to deployed ops.

Lose the bands and those any trade posts may come back to haunt you.

Not splitting hairs in any way - the trade either has an established OOA commitment or it hasn't. Are you seriously suggesting we should retain an entire trade because they do the odd OOA for which they are not established? Have a look at the DWR TRT and you'll see there are enough trades/ranks who get nowhere near to breaking harmony to fill the Any Trade posts without the musicians. Not to mention the bloated Officer Corps who do nothing like their fair share. There are a number of ways to ensure the load is apportioned more equitably, but unfortunately there are not enough people with the kahunas to make the difficult choices. Losing the bands will not haunt me in any manner - I have done, and continue to do, my fair share. Fairness should worry nobody.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Not splitting hairs in any way - the trade either has an established OOA commitment or it hasn't. Are you seriously suggesting we should retain an entire trade because they do the odd OOA for which they are not established? Have a look at the DWR TRT and you'll see there are enough trades/ranks who get nowhere near to breaking harmony to fill the Any Trade posts without the musicians. Not to mention the bloated Officer Corps who do nothing like their fair share. There are a number of ways to ensure the load is apportioned more equitably, but unfortunately there are not enough people with the kahunas to make the difficult choices. Losing the bands will not haunt me in any manner - I have done, and continue to do, my fair share. Fairness should worry nobody.

Sorry, I don't like disagreeing with you, particularly over such a small point, but I think it's necessary in this case. Not having musician-specific posts on deployed ops ("OOA" is so Gulf War I!!) should not be allowed to detract from the fact that musicians and other trades without established posts can and do deploy.

I accept your point that some ranks/trades have ample scope within harmony limits to absorb additional posts but if you read back through this thread you'll see that I believe the musicians' primary role is reason enough to retain them (two-thirds of them anyway) and their deployability gives them an extra dimension, which I fervently hope will suffice to safeguard the music services.

It may be that you are right and the bands will disappear as a result of SDSR, along with force development, adventurous training and representative sport, to name just a few of the things which separate military service from your normal 9 to 5 but do not contribute directly to operations. I think that would be a mistake.

 

[Realist78]

The Turkey Roll has only been filled 3 times by musicians.

OOA dets include. Force Protection - Kabul, JHF - KAF and Bastion, OPLOC - KAF, PSYOPS - Iraq, Covoy Commander - Iraq, Op Buzzard - Lash / Fob Price, Ambulance Drivers - Falkland Islands.

Our offical War Roll is CDT.

We no longer fill the roll of medics

Hope it clears a bit up for people.

Barns

Shouldn't that be the caterers task?DT_Xtremez_34:

 

[True Blue Jack]

Shouldn't that be the caterers task?DT_Xtremez_34:

At the risk of incurring TMG's wrath, I have actually just spat coffee over my keyboard. DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[WAR PIG]

As was mentioned earlier, I agree there needs to be a change to the way we do things. We should be looking to put an end to the wasted millions in bungled procurement and equipment projects.

Also It has been stated recently that HMF have an 'unattainable' shopping list of items which we cannot afford.

Perhaps we could afford them if we had not wasted money on paying civilian contractors to provide solutions which certain trades in blue would have been more than happy ( and able ) to provide for free.

oh hang on..... that's not called progress is it

 

[T93]

Shouldn't that be the caterers task?DT_Xtremez_34:

*********

Class response.

I am sitting here giggling away and with tears in my eyes DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[FOMz]

Tommo, you've hit the nail on the head mate...

There can be no room for sentimentality in an SDR..

Cutting Musicians?... gets my vote everytime, a complete waste of space in the modern (and future) RAF.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Anyone read this snippet?

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw100716_1_n.shtml

 

[Treehugger]

Anyone read this snippet?

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw100716_1_n.shtml

Yeah, there's an entire thread dedicated to it! See the thread entitled 'Who's going to look after the submarines?'. It's in this section.

 

[MrMasher]

Anyone read this snippet?

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw100716_1_n.shtml

No, what's that?
DT_Xtremez_42: